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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

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Post by ryder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:49 am

Mahler9 brought up a pertinent point about hearing damage. I notice quite a few folks who listen to music at above average volume levels, say 90dB-100dB on average, and I'm not too sure how many hours their ears are subjected to these sort of SPLs per day. I have to admit that I like my music loud too and often crank up the volume when listening to music. However, my ears can't tolerate high SPLs at prolonged listening sessions, probably slightly damaged when listening to loud music during my younger days. Nowadays I listen to music at low to moderate volume levels to protect my hearing but occasionally crank it up once a while.

Signs of hearing deterioration(when listening to loud music) include ear drums vibrating, buzzing sound in ear drums and imbalance in sound pressure levels between left and right ear ie. left ear hearing louder than right ear or vice versa. Some people have more robust ears than others so their ears can take more abuse by listening to music at crazy levels without experiencing much problems. Nevertheless, problems will crop up at one time or another especially when one gets older. Hence, if you don't want to go deaf at an early stage, it is wise to practice good listening habits now.


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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:32 am

Mahler,

I am happy than you are enjoying yr Harbeth.

Yr post actually brought back an incident quite a while ago where a close buddy of mine who loves classical music and owns a Harbeth. He is actually the one who introduced me to this Brand. See, I experienced Harbeth quite some time ago, probably longer than most of you guys did.

To cut the incident short, he is quite a fanatic....Harbeth this and Harbeth that. Probably had his 'mini concert' in his listening room every nite (like SHL-5). Told me that his Harbeth is very good, short of saying it is the best speaker money can buy. He cld afford any other speakers he desire but still loves his Harbeth. To him, classical thru Harbeth is the most correct and he even pointed out why.

One day, he attended a classical concert (first ever) while touring Europe and his idea of sound reproduction totally changed. He told me that what he experienced in a live concert is totally different from his perception from his beloved speaker. The scale, strength and tone of the live concert is a totally different world. Obviously, he packed up his Harbeth (I think he still kept it) but now got a pair of TWIN TOWER in his listening room.

A lot of people perceived sound from their own perspective without any reference from any live or real sound. Just like HL-5 uses his Harbeth as a reference to measure other speakers. If yr Harbeth is indeed colored, do you expect other SOTA speakers to be colored too just to be considered close to yr reference??? How many Harbeth owners use live sound as their reference or use just poly cone and plywood box with a badge.

Sound is subjective. Reference shd not be one of the subject that is being compared.
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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:44 am

Ryder,

There are speaker that you can listen quite loud to for hours and there are speakers that you can't.

Yr ears cannot cannot tolerate high spl , mainly bacause it is from yr speaker. I have the same effect in the showroom listening to the same speaker as yrs.

But maybe it is just me. Sorry, just my experience. Maybe the speaker is not fully run in at the showroom but if you too experience it, then it must be true.

I came to realised from these few post that Harbeth owners have a lot of variables they have to avoid when listening to these wonderful speaker.
Cannot play loud, no bass, no rock music, no scale, metallic highs, slow muddy bass, lazy, colored mids etc etc. If you can overlook all those variables....then Harbeth is the perfwect speaker for you.
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Post by ryder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:56 am

VS126, maybe I didn't explain it clearer. When I meant by loud is real loud. This is not related to speakers but the comfortable SPLs that we listen to. When I am making the comment in my last post, I am solely referring to SPL alone and not speakers. Any speaker that I place in the room will show similar results if I listen at 100dB at prolonged listening sessions.

At moderate(sensible) volume levels I listen at an average 2 hours, up to 3-4 hours on a good day.

I think we have a difference in opinion. I certainly do not think that the Harbeth lacks bass, can't play rock music, does not have scale, no bass, muddy, lazy, metallic highs etc. That is all your own interpretation. If the Harbeths have metallic highs I can't say how all the other higher end speakers would sound like as I felt the Harbeths are "rolled-off" in the highs when compared to most of these speakers in the market.

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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:32 am

Ryder,

You have no idea what is loud with control.

I will stop talking about Harbeth for now. my apologies to all Harbetians.
I hv some PM asking me not to talk about Harbeth's shortcoming. maybe those from Harbeth group.

My apologies if I offend anyone. I hv nothing against Harbeth or it's fanatic owners. Just my views on what I hv experienced.

Maybe one day, someone will invite me to a well setup Harbeth system that will do justice to the speaker.

So my friend...Cheers. Enjoy what you own.
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Post by ryder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:36 am

VS126,

No worries.

Well, I may not know what is loud with control, but there is still a limit as to how much my ears can take before they blow up when listening to a system which can go loud with control. I hope you can get my point.

Cheers.


Last edited by ryder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ryder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:39 am

By the way, although I am a fan, I admit Harbeth has its own colourations and is not perfect just like any other speakers out there. Sometime down the road when I get sick listening to the Harbeth who knows I may start looking again.

Enjoy~

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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:47 am

That is the spirit, open up yr mind and explore but enjoy what you have now.
Never use a speaker as a reference.
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Post by noodle88 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:21 am

Mahler 9,
U r wrong, for those who play horn they do not go for boom boom. What they want is the delicacy of horn that can produce a balance of sound from low to high frequency even at low level. Horn speaker also give u a effortless sound which other speakers r hard to match.

Try go n listern to horn speaker which driven by SET amp, u may find your bookshelf speaker is just sound like a minicompo. The bass is just not right for me.
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Post by SHL-5 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:58 am

I feel that Mahler 9 raised a very good point. I am also a classical music listener though i also listen to some jazz, new age & vocal stuff. Many harbeth users are also lovers of classical music. At this point, i have to quantify that i mainly use Harbeth as a reference ONLY to judge other speakers. My ultimate reference is still live unamplified acoustic music like in a live classical concert. Just as Dixchen pointed out that Harbeth allowed him to detect cone colorations from other spks. That is precisely why i use Harbeth as a reference. Of course Harbeth is not perfect but on acoustic music, it gets closer to the real thing IMHO than any other spks i've heard & i've heard many many spks. I know alot of audiophiles go for scale, high 'wow' factor & grandeur of sound but IMHO, all this is useless if the basic tone, overtones & timbre of instruments is not correctly reproduced. Its a quantity vs quality thing.

And yes, i've also heard many SET amps driving horn spks of various kinds. I mentioned in above post that i was very impressed with a Tannoy GRF Memory i heard in the mid 80s mainly becos of its scale & grandeur of sound. However, its mid is not as neutral as any BBC based spk. In the 80s, Rogers, KEF, Chartwell & Celestion were very popular british spks that people look to for that pure, neutral & captivating midband. If scale & grandeur were everything, then i suppose the venerable LS-3/5A would not be the classic it is today. Look at the resale prices of LS-3/5A, esp those of the 15ohm variety. And how many times has the 3/5A been re-issued in various guises. Look at Jo Ki for eg, how many pairs of 3/5A he owns?
So one man's meat is another's poison. How true is that.

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Post by Mikapoh on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:11 am

ryder wrote:VS126, maybe I didn't explain it clearer. When I meant by loud is real loud. This is not related to speakers but the comfortable SPLs that we listen to. When I am making the comment in my last post, I am solely referring to SPL alone and not speakers. Any speaker that I place in the room will show similar results if I listen at 100dB at prolonged listening sessions.

From reading the post, whenever there is a discussion VS126 always relate to "Harbeth". Makes me think this word cant really get out of this mind. Here we talk about SPL tolerance level to our ears, and not Harbeth as a "reference point". Even ryder has pointed out clearly. This can implies something....

On average, I also listen below 90dB and occasionally I do crank up the volume. All depends on our mood. But prolong listening to high spl is not recommended. Remember our ears are the most precious and expensive gears than our equipments.

Now on Harbeth, can we share how long on average per day do you guys listen to your music? A lot of people say these speakers have very low listening fatigue. Can all the Harbeth owners share the hours spend on them? To me, I 've been listening for avg 2 hours per day but since it is still early stage of my ownership I cannot conclude anything yet. My Mezzos only attracted me for a mere half an hour or most 1 hour average per day. Now they are pushed back to work in the AV system. Wow ryder, you can have your listening session extend up to 4 hours. Thats amazing and must be something unique that attracts you to glue on to the chair. This shows that you're making full use of your equipments and certainly a well worth investment. I can also conclude that you are truly listening to the music or stay connected to the music than just "analyzing" the highs, mid, bass boom etc. We tend to listen to equipments not music. Care to share what are the equipments you use. We are so envy of you, enjoy music to the "fullest".


















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Post by Bite on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:16 am

Look guys........Harbeth is simply the best. All said about its good points is true and all that is wrong with it, untrue.

I say that simply because its sitting in my living room, I have already paid for it and cant afford to change equipment. So I dont have to be open minded about anything.

Only regret is I only get to listen to it at night when the clothes wash lines is not in use.


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Post by Mahler 9 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:25 am

Ur frined is a fine example of typical mistake. But glad he finally knew how to enjoying his musics. Harbeth or not is pointless. Music shd be always 1st. Plenty of audiophile listen sound with hifi mags, other people comments, friend comments, some so called sifu comments, then imaging what is good sound etc and take reviews as references, looking at graphic or spec on paper to compare sound he heard rather than real, lovely, beautiful live unamplified music. I am more lucky than your friend because I had attended quite number of live classical concerts, some are really wonderful live concert performed by Philadelphia Orchestra, Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philarmonic etc, and fully aware where my reference point coming from. Majority of audiophile like to judge sound by comparing brand A and Brand B which lead to forever buy/sell marry go round action. Only person who able to judge good sound from good live unamplified music able to get the sound closest to what he really like. To me, it is Harbeth. There is another guy who like to share his reviews on classical albums he like to other thru net and regular live classical concert listener he is enjoying his Vandersteen 2Ce. Reference point can be set objectively and clear but how a person translate it into sound that he hear and feel still very very subjective. Some people attended live concert and said to me why there is no high and high so dull and believing that his speaker sound is better still. He was not aware what he heard is sound come from unamplified instruments but not amplified electrical or EQed sound mostly present in pop, heavy rock, punk musics, being live or album which were highly distorted.

Take post message as sharing, take it or leave it. appreciate and agree to disagree.

cheers

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Post by SHL-5 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:27 am

Bite wrote:Look guys........Harbeth is simply the best. All said about its good points is true and all that is wrong with it, untrue.

I say that simply because its sitting in my living room, I have already paid for it and cant afford to change equipment. So I dont have to be open minded about anything.

Only regret is I only get to listen to it at night when the clothes wash lines is not in use.


Hi Bite, how's things? Good to hear that you are still enjoying your KING. Very Happy

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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:29 am

[/quote]

From reading the post, whenever there is a discussion VS126 always relate to "Harbeth". Makes me think this word cant really get out of this mind. Here we talk about SPL tolerance level to our ears, and not Harbeth as a "reference point". Even ryder has pointed out clearly. This can implies something....

Hey: this is Harbeth topic, what else to talk but Harbeth.

Ryder mentioned that he cannot listened too long if it is too loud. I know he uses SHL-5, so I assumed that he is referring to Harbeth SHL-5 that he cannot tolerate listening to at loud levels for extended periods of time.

Coincidently, I also cannot tolerate listening to the SHL-5 in SAM's showroom at louder than usual levels for long period of time. So there is a corelation between these incidents.

There is no other speaker brands involved in the discussion. I did not mentioned that I can or cannot listen to other speakers at high volume for long period of time.

Lets just stop this here. Harbeth is good but just not for me.
















[/quote]
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Post by SHL-5 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:35 am

Mikapoh wrote:
ryder wrote:VS126, maybe I didn't explain it clearer. When I meant by loud is real loud. This is not related to speakers but the comfortable SPLs that we listen to. When I am making the comment in my last post, I am solely referring to SPL alone and not speakers. Any speaker that I place in the room will show similar results if I listen at 100dB at prolonged listening sessions.

From reading the post, whenever there is a discussion VS126 always relate to "Harbeth". Makes me think this word cant really get out of this mind. Here we talk about SPL tolerance level to our ears, and not Harbeth as a "reference point". Even ryder has pointed out clearly. This can implies something....

On average, I also listen below 90dB and occasionally I do crank up the volume. All depends on our mood. But prolong listening to high spl is not recommended. Remember our ears are the most precious and expensive gears than our equipments.

Now on Harbeth, can we share how long on average per day do you guys listen to your music? A lot of people say these speakers have very low listening fatigue. Can all the Harbeth owners share the hours spend on them? To me, I 've been listening for avg 2 hours per day but since it is still early stage of my ownership I cannot conclude anything yet. My Mezzos only attracted me for a mere half an hour or most 1 hour average per day. Now they are pushed back to work in the AV system. Wow ryder, you can have your listening session extend up to 4 hours. Thats amazing and must be something unique that attracts you to glue on to the chair. This shows that you're making full use of your equipments and certainly a well worth investment. I can also conclude that you are truly listening to the music or stay connected to the music than just "analyzing" the highs, mid, bass boom etc. We tend to listen to equipments not music. Care to share what are the equipments you use. We are so envy of you, enjoy music to the "fullest".


















Hi Mikapoh, when i was still single, i used to listen up to 8 hours a day on weekdays & more than 10 hours on weekends. But i had to sacrifice plenty of sleep. Survived on only 2 - 3 hours of sleep everyday for about 5 years. Thought i was the only crazy guy back then but after reading several other Harbeths' users posts on Harbeth User Group UK do i realise that i am not the only one. Its always about playing one more track but most of the time, that one more track ended up with countless more tracks & before you even know it, several hours gone! Laughing

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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:42 am

No need for horn speaker. But any 100K speaker will make a 10K speaker sound like minicompo already.
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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:44 am

Bite wrote:Look guys........Harbeth is simply the best. All said about its good points is true and all that is wrong with it, untrue.

I say that simply because its sitting in my living room, I have already paid for it and cant afford to change equipment. So I dont have to be open minded about anything.

Only regret is I only get to listen to it at night when the clothes wash lines is not in use.



LMAO !!!


Good one @Bite !

lol!
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Post by Mikapoh on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:59 am

Please DON'T stop! This thread is for Harbeth as the thread owner has specifically changed it. It's good that those owners come in to share their views. For those who think this speaker brand is not for them, please stop. You can join other suitable thread.

This is also what happened in one of the local AV thread (if you know what forum). If you think you cannot accept the Denon sound just stop and join others thread like Onkyo or Yahama. You wont get anything but provoking the situation in there. Saying to stop but still writing will do no justice to owns statement.

No prejudice judgment here and no objection to anyone too. Everyone has their own preference and perceptions. In here we have something in common to share, simple as that.

I just enjoy the music re-produced by these speakers and will NEVER think these speakers are the BEST.

Guys, care to share average hours of listening p/s?


Peace. Enjoy as life is short.







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Post by moderneagle on Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:20 pm

I listen on average 3 hours to female vocals, get really fatigued (hello dei, wife voice and two other female toddlers voices juxtaposed with C7 female voices who in their right mind won't be fatigue la?). Maybe I should listen to drum tracks instead, ok?

Yours, what Bite said, moderneagle

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Post by WongKN on Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:24 pm

I think it is finally time for me to 'step in'.

This thread is for Harbeth owners to talk about Harbeth speakers. So I want to urge everyone to respect this and to let this thread run as it is supposed to run.

HAVING SAID THIS, I want to also issue a reminder to those who intend to continue participating in this thread.

Now, I DO NOT know how things are run in other forums but here in this forum, we (moderators and admin) wants to enforce MUTUAL RESPECT. By this, we mean difference of opinions are fine and we also welcome debate based on that. But what we do not tolerate is disparagement and simply put, bad-mouthing of people whose opinion once does not share or agree with.

So a reminder to Harbeth owners in this thread. While you are free to discuss about your speakers and to praise it in any way you deem fit, PLEASE DO NOT CRITICISE or put in 'SUGGESTIONS' (I am sure everyone know what I mean) about those who do not share your high regards for the speaker. For e.g. to suggest that those who do not agree that Harbeth is the 'best' speaker bar none are those who do not know what 'natural sound' is like or those who do not listen to music, or even worse, simply do not have good ears or do not 'how to listen'. Well, such things DO NOT WORK here in this forum. You can be proud of your speakers but it does not mean you can step down on others who are not proud of that speaker.

There are many here who do not own a Harbeth and for a fact I know many have more 'credentials' about 'live, unamplified, natural' music than many here. So to step down on their credibility simply because they don't own a Harbeth is not a polite thing to do and is not tolerated here.

I also noted the frequent mention of Jo Ki's name. I think many of you knows that he & I are friends and for a fact, I DO NOT BELIEVE Jo would be happy or appreciative of the fact that his name and his preferences are being used in the kind of 'debate' that have been going on here the past few days. Of course I will not 'ban' the mention of Jo's name but will leave it to him to decide what, if anything, he decides to do about it.
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Post by ryder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:01 pm

Average 2 hours, on a good day 3 hours, and 4 hours about the max on a very good day in a single listening session. All listening sessions carried out are just listening to music and not doing anything else(some people listen to music while working on their projects or playing with their kids etc, ie. multitasking). On rare occasions I listen to music while watching movies on DVDs but without the dialogue or sound effects in play since it's the stereo that's playing.

I read about a guy (tein?) on HUG that posted 12 or 14 hours a day in the 1st week when he got his Harbeth speakers. Can't imagine he listens to music longer than my sleeping hours. Damn...

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Post by 123_rocketman on Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:15 pm

Guys,

IIRC, there is a close relation between exposure duration and SPL. For a 8 hr continuous exposure, the recommended SPL is 85dB and the duration is halved for every 5 dB increment up to a maximum of 120dB.

Never subject your hearing to SPL above 120dB as it can cause severe and irreversible damage to your hearing.

My 20 sen, Barang Naik.

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Post by 123_rocketman on Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:20 pm

Bite wrote:Look guys........Harbeth is simply the best. All said about its good points is true and all that is wrong with it, untrue.

I say that simply because its sitting in my living room, I have already paid for it and cant afford to change equipment. So I dont have to be open minded about anything.

Only regret is I only get to listen to it at night when the clothes wash lines is not in use.


I salute you sir. Your sense of humour is beyond words. Very Happy

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Post by 123_rocketman on Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:28 pm

mugenfoo wrote:No need for horn speaker. But any 100K speaker will make a 10K speaker sound like minicompo already.

Not completely true. Good sound is not directly proportionate to the price tack of equipment.

IMHO, there is always a limit to the amount of improvement that can be achieved against money spent. After which, the law of diminishing returns beckons.

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Post by ryder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:35 pm

123_rocketman wrote:Guys,

IIRC, there is a close relation between exposure duration and SPL. For a 8 hr continuous exposure, the recommended SPL is 85dB and the duration is halved for every 5 dB increment up to a maximum of 120dB.

Never subject your hearing to SPL above 120dB as it can cause severe and irreversible damage to your hearing.

My 20 sen, Barang Naik.

That is correct. Not too sure which standard was being referred to but OSHA guidelines set a permissible exposure of 8 hours for 90dB. When duration is halved, 4 hours would correspond to 95dB and 2 hours 100dB. Those who exceed these figures may have a higher risk of getting permanent hearing damage sooner.

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Post by tycham on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:21 pm

Bite wrote:

Only regret is I only get to listen to it at night when the clothes wash lines is not in use.


I know of no better ways(and with good humour too) to put across the message that the Harbeth speakers are forgiving on the type of cables used.


Last edited by tycham on Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:13 pm

123_rocketman wrote:
mugenfoo wrote:No need for horn speaker. But any 100K speaker will make a 10K speaker sound like minicompo already.

Not completely true. Good sound is not directly proportionate to the price tack of equipment.

IMHO, there is always a limit to the amount of improvement that can be achieved against money spent. After which, the law of diminishing returns beckons.

Aiyaaa... this one somebody go and cucuk me to post one .... where is he now ah ? Razz Razz Razz
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Post by 123_rocketman on Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:35 pm

mugenfoo wrote:
123_rocketman wrote:
mugenfoo wrote:No need for horn speaker. But any 100K speaker will make a 10K speaker sound like minicompo already.

Not completely true. Good sound is not directly proportionate to the price tack of equipment.

IMHO, there is always a limit to the amount of improvement that can be achieved against money spent. After which, the law of diminishing returns beckons.

Aiyaaa... this one somebody go and cucuk me to post one .... where is he now ah ? Razz Razz Razz

Watch your back(side)...... Twisted Evil

lol!

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Post by Mikapoh on Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:48 pm

When having my critical listening, I will always have myself alone and doing nothing except bringing a glass of red wine with me. DO you guys drink during your listening session? But lately I will put a smile on my face whenever music is played in my room. At times that I'm so involved into the music that I will only pick up my glass of wine in between each track, not in between definitely.

Talking about glass, anyone experiencing using "Glass Panels" behind your Harbeth speakers or at back of your listening chair? I get an advice in saying glass is in fact a good reflection material. Sound reflected from glass is portrayed to be more balanced and natural than other types of acoustic panels. Maybe a mix of those things? It has not been proven but interesting idea.










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Post by sleme on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:51 pm

WongKN wrote:I think it is finally time for me to 'step in'.

This thread is for Harbeth owners to talk about Harbeth speakers. So I want to urge everyone to respect this and to let this thread run as it is supposed to run.

HAVING SAID THIS, I want to also issue a reminder to those who intend to continue participating in this thread.

Now, I DO NOT know how things are run in other forums but here in this forum, we (moderators and admin) wants to enforce MUTUAL RESPECT. By this, we mean difference of opinions are fine and we also welcome debate based on that. But what we do not tolerate is disparagement and simply put, bad-mouthing of people whose opinion once does not share or agree with.

So a reminder to Harbeth owners in this thread. While you are free to discuss about your speakers and to praise it in any way you deem fit, PLEASE DO NOT CRITICISE or put in 'SUGGESTIONS' (I am sure everyone know what I mean) about those who do not share your high regards for the speaker. For e.g. to suggest that those who do not agree that Harbeth is the 'best' speaker bar none are those who do not know what 'natural sound' is like or those who do not listen to music, or even worse, simply do not have good ears or do not 'how to listen'. Well, such things DO NOT WORK here in this forum. You can be proud of your speakers but it does not mean you can step down on others who are not proud of that speaker.

WongKN,

I appreciate the thankless job undertaken by the administrators and moderators of this forum. However, this thread started off as a very informative thread on Harbeth speakers. The discussion was respectful and informative. It started detriorating at page 2 with this post...

"Post by VS126 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:37 am
+
----
-
A lot of harbeth diehards boast of Natural sound and match it with clinical dry audiolab amp and still states it is good match. Match it with colored tube amps and still Natural Sound. Harbeth goes with any amp and still makes Natural sound.
Makes one wonder what is Natural Sound??? How natural can it be when it comes out from poly cone and box cabinets. Must be excellent marketing."

Forgive me for saying this but this is a troll post drafted in a provocative manner to entice a negative response.
Prior to this post there was no negativity. The involvement of MF to add 'spice' did not really help the tone. I supposed if the trolling is cut down, this place will be a much happier place.



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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:49 pm

sleme, if you want to state a point, at least do it right, and not with incomplete info. If you want to locate the biggest troll in this thread, its way closer than you think, and its not VS126 rest assured. But we'll get back to this in a while...

And if you actually bother to FOLLOW this thread enough, I have even gone on to defend that a Harbeth is not really a BOOMY speaker that some people claim it to be, and that there are many factors that cause this perceived "defect" of a harbeth speakers. But mainly due to more external factors like room conditions and also poor mounting/positioning, etc etc.

I have also gone on to show why a Harbeth SOUNDS the way it SOUNDS. Which is neither BAD or GOOD, but just the WAY it's BUILT to SOUND.

If you can't handle simple facts, too bad for you.

If you're one of those who take everything AS says and postulates as the Gospel truth... well... Wink

So before you go and identify any trolls here, suggest you go and take a look in a mirror first. That "troll" may be closer to you than you realised before.

The moderator's posting is fully justified. IMO of course.


Last edited by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by WongKN on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:54 pm

While I do not and will not put blame on any specific person in this thread, my hope and confidence is that everyone are matured and will tone down their post. Consequently, I expect the see this thread become informative once again. Actually I think it has already become more informative since as I can see members discussing about how long they are listening to their system now. So a big kudos to all the forumers involved for being sporting gentlemens. Now, can we let it rest and everyone get back to discussing about Harbeth. Minus any finger pointing (from both sides) of course. Thanks to everyone.
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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:59 pm

seriously.... aside from all fellow Harbethians who have stated their opinions and what nots ... I'd be one of the few here posting some tangible data FOR the BENEFIT of Harbethians (if they know what to do with the knowledge, that is).

Until the latest troll came along and starts finger pointing again.

To set the record straight, I have even gone to great lengths to assist friends who are fellow Harbeth owners to get better sound from their system by way of speaker positioning and also improvement in their other associated equipment. I cannot be a Harbeth hater and yet still invest precious time into getting better sound for my friends who play Harbeths.


Last edited by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:47 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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Post by moderneagle on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:09 pm

Oops..

Yours, guilty as charged, moderneagle


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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:22 pm


[color=cyan]A lot of harbeth diehards boast of Natural sound and match it with clinical dry audiolab amp and still states it is good match. Match it with colored tube amps and still Natural Sound. Harbeth goes with any amp and still makes Natural sound.
Makes one wonder what is Natural Sound??? How natural can it be when it comes out from poly cone and box cabinets. Must be excellent marketing."


Sleme,

Exactly what is wrong with the above statement???

I wrote it as I see it..."Without Fear or Favour"

If you can't take constructive criticism, how are you going to learn???

[/quote]
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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:39 pm

mugenfoo wrote:
Until the latest troll came along and starts finger pointing again.

.

MF...you mean "Man In The Mirror"?

Frankly guys, if you were to read thru my post on this Harbeth properly, what I wrote are all facts.

I have known few guys just starting out in Hifi and based their buying decisions from this forum and those from the Harbeth Owner's Group. Of course, the post are all well screened as mentioned by Ryder. Those unfavourable comments were all omitted.

Well, I have personally known few of them regretted buying Harbeth after listening to other brands, but wld never want to voice it out so to maintain the resale value.

So this thread is very informative to would be buyer. Listen and listen before you make the decision. If you still think it is what you want, then buy it. Do not let others decide for you.
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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:49 pm

VS126 wrote:
mugenfoo wrote:
Until the latest troll came along and starts finger pointing again.

.

MF...you mean "Man In The Mirror"?

Could be that they wouldn't know ... becoz maybe if they played any MJ songs , they might end up playing "Cry me a river" afterwards....
lol!
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Post by tycham on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:07 pm

ryder wrote:Well, I may not know what is loud with control,

Maybe it's something like this! Very Happy

Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 5 Loud_b10
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Post by Mahler 9 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:11 pm

Just aware WongKN is forum moderator. Laughing I thought is mugenfoo. Laughing

Who buying something base on other ppl commets and regret is a good lesson for the buyer and nobody can blame beside buyer himself. People sharing and answering but do not use physical threatening to force buyer must buy this and that.

Majority starting this hobby is quite easy to be influenced by other value and follow them buying thing. Overlook each person value thing differently (for example, some ppl value and love MJ like crazy but for some ppl MJ really sound noisy nvr wish to listen it. etc)...This is the starting point of "buying and regreting" repeat and repeat again until buyer found his true value.

Changing to other brand also do not mean which brand good or bad, that just showing which brand is really work for the buyer.



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Post by WongKN on Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:20 pm

That is good. I believe a moderator should not be seen, heard or felt, but still be able to quietly come in to do the job when needed. Sort of like Wong Fei Hung's mou yeng kiok. Kena already, but didn't see what happened !! Laughing
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Post by moderneagle on Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:18 am

My name is moderneagle and I'm a Harbeth user. Before I bought into the Harbeth brand, I auditioned a number of speakers with my amp carried under the armpit to sellers houses and dealers showrooms. I auditioned Elacs, Proac D1 and D2, Dalis, a bigass full range with Fostexs and even an old HL-5 among others. My criteria; around 10krm, better if less, not too big in size and not too heavy in weight, have good balanced tonal qualities, and one key criteria, must be well driven by my amp. Having played music since young, even professionally for a short stint, and into music recording and live performance with my electric blues band, I have a pretty good idea what I like and don't in terms of sound reproduction. Trained as an engineer early in my career yet falling prey to marketing hype and snake oil (it's called mojo where I came from) I've paid my dues so to speak with musical gears. Hence my wariness of internet reviews, forums, and even individuals' personal opinions of which I know not their motivation, as I embark on this new hobby. I had a budget that I need to work within (which has been blown if u need to know) and the Harbeth philosophy is appealing at least in keeping within the constrains I have set up for myself. And with my auditions of various speakers (a small sample I must admit considering all that's out there), sonically the Harbeths don't sound half bad at all, in fact they sound great to my ears. Now I don't see the logic over why there is so much fussing over the sound being natural or not or are these boxes the best ever (or not) that generates so much negative chi, for me they sound natural enough and these Harbeths are the best fit to my particular needs now and I believe for quite a while to come. I have a pretty good feeling that's how it's going to be as they allow me to listen to the music I love with respectable fidelity within what I'm willing to spend on Hifi. So yeah, I'm happy with my C7's. If you're considering Harbeths for your next purchase and if you have similar criteria/constraints like me, I would not hesitate to recommend these good speakers that is if their sonic signature appeals to you (ultimately that should be the most important criteria). One last point, being the cheap basterd I am, the prices in Malaysia are reasonable by that I mean they are in keeping to prices you see over the Internet as opposed to some other brands carried locally some of which frankly are overly marked up - not questioning such local dealers who have their own rationale and business costs to sustain, just a matter of me being connoisiour of all things cheap(er) and good.

Thought this sharing may be of interest to someone out there.

Yours, Harbeths are nice, moderneagle.

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Post by jtan on Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:31 am

Moderneagle, you are a gentleman and I salute your temperance and good sense of humour. Long may you enjoy music over your C7s and may we meet someday over real beer.

Yours in agreement, and owner of M30s, jtan

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Post by mrquery on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:11 am

Hello Harbethian Followers,

I have followed this thread and finally the waters are calm now.

Not surprisingly all those negativity given by other forumers did not kept me looking for other brands. (this is a matter of preference, don't get me wrong). This is because I myself were / was acquinted with harbeth (hl p3 and monitor 30) sometime ago and the thing it does (monitor 30) not getting your attention and just letting the music play gets my attention fully.

Now with that out of the way, I would like to check opinions whether hl p3 (around RM2000 used) is comparable enough to compact 7 (around RM4000 used, correct me if I'm wrong).

Please don't bring up the price differences since what I would like to know is, if somebody can live with hl p3 before upgrading to compact 7. Bottom line is, what will I be missing from hl p3 compare to compact 7?

The circumstances which keep me from acquiring the compact 7 are:
a. I am poor (translate to many expenses here and there)
b. WAF (cannot really go audiotion here / audition there plus I wanted her to get accostumed first with the least expensive harbeth)
c. Mobility (I only got 9months to know if I will stay in the same project or assigned new location projects)

Oh associate equipment used are arcam delta int amp, pc source (WAV file via mf dac), focus BS speaker, that's it. Music genre, mostly all (but don't concern me if harbeth is fully tuned for acoustic / unamplified sound)

Lastly, preference wise, my ears are very sensitive to sibilance and cannot tolerate tizzy, sharp highs.

Appreciate informative inputs, thanks

P.S. Anybody reading this which share off topic insight and would like to address my post, please keep it to yourself.


Last edited by mrquery on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added focus BS speaker in text)

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Post by tycham on Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:52 am

mrquery wrote:Hello Harbethian Followers,

I have followed this thread and finally the waters are calm now.

The old adage, "Still water runs deep" can also apply to boxed cone drivers.

mrquery wrote:

Now with that out of the way, I would like to check opinions whether hl p3 (around RM2000 used) is comparable enough to compact 7 (around RM4000 used, correct me if I'm wrong).

I have the HL P3 with a cloned AB1 and I have never thought of changing these to a bigger pair. In my system, these would probably surpass the C7 in performance.

Probably, what I have to describe to you about the sonic qualities of the P3 might not be what you will perceived when you yourself listen to it, as 'old fart' like me might have hearing anomalies given our age. Likely, we should be looking for speakers like this one below.

Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 5 Rodrigues+cartoon+-+senior+speakers

Nevertheless, what I can do is to share with you a fellow LS 3/5A Group member recent experience of the P3 in a Work In Progress room being acoustically treated:

"The owner was using an interesting setup >Rm100k before
the room was treated or shall i say re-treated with acoustic materials and he decided to plonk in his old P3 together with a 25 year old pre& power to play as his setup was just too heavy and many to mobilise before the room is completed. So this is more of an urge to listen to the progress in the room on a day to day basis.

I must say that i am thoroughly amazed with the little diminutive P3 as it
sounded like a million bucks. Deadly accurate as you can pin point every
single detail with striking precision. The soundstage sounded like it was >
30" in a room that is only 12" wide. You can hear the P3 project the entire
experience in front of you and beyond. It's not only wide in front but
extends deep to your sides as well when the right Cd is played. I could
literally hear the bells & triangles 180 degrees wide extending to my
shoulder's side. The bass? The Sheffield Labs track could have fooled you
silly about the speaker's size. In fact then entire presentation does not
feel like that it is coming from a small bookshelf speaker but instead from
something much much much bigger.


The sound was filling the entire room without any gaps and this is Total
Immersion experience. I have never listened to a room like this.


With the proper acoustics in place, the P3 sang beautifully. An old RM6.5 k
second hand setup really sounded like it can beat a million dollar setup.
This was an opinion actually expressed.

Simply beautiful I must say. It makes me want to buy a P3 now but I have
to do up my room first."


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Post by Mikapoh on Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:39 am

mrquery wrote:Hello Harbethian Followers,

Lastly, preference wise, my ears are very sensitive to sibilance and cannot tolerate tizzy, sharp highs.


That's one of main reason contributed to my last decision in taking the plunge on Harbeths. An extended top-end is very nice to listen initially and can easily attract one's attention. But prolong listening I find that it is fatiguing. Something that I can;t be drawn into the music. In fact, I'm very close in getting the Proac but I choose the Harbeths due to its organic and low fatiguing sound. I agreed that it all boils down to individual listening preference. Harbeths sound may not be for everyone (especially seeking for thrills) so please know your taste first. And I really appreciate Ryder's in-depth recommendation. It's worth mentioning his name here because he's quite neutral or transparent when comes to speakers choice. He has a very good and very accurate too in describing each speaker's house sound within his listening boundary. He also praised good things about Proac and its strengths too although he leans a little towards Harbeth in his suggestions to me (haha). At one stage I was in dilemma between the 2s. But I am great I found the answer. The above are just my final shortlist. In fact I am Proac fan and will be my dream to own them. But I can't guarantee Harbeths will be my last speakers to buy, nothing can be foreseen in future. Electrostatic maybe....? As for now, they are very enjoyable although not the WOW kind of thing. Maybe just like a very fine wine waiting for me to explore further into the time.

Anyway, C7s are not so 'compact' as the name suggests. Their old boxy designs and out-dated outlook (for me at least) has put me off several times although the name cannot be ignored! But once the first song is played, you know you are in cloud 9 and forget everything else. They will just disappear in front of you. It is such a joy to listen to and very musical too. Every instruments including the piano key hammering has the 'body' to it.


Cheers.

Always listening to emotions and expression.







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Post by 123_rocketman on Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:48 am

VS126 wrote:

Well, I have personally known few of them regretted buying Harbeth after listening to other brands, but wld never want to voice it out so to maintain the resale value.

So this thread is very informative to would be buyer. Listen and listen before you make the decision. If you still think it is what you want, then buy it. Do not let others decide for you.

I dont remember seeing any seller citing regrets as their reason to sell their equipment.

It is obvious that both the sellers and buyers have their own distinct reasons to sell/buy the equipment, otherwise, no deal can be concluded. All sales are based on "willing buyer, willing seller" basis and all transacted prices are deemed to be fair by both parties.

In the early 90s, a used Proton Iswara cost more than a new unit in the show room. Yet they were selling like hot cakes!! scratch scratch scratch

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Post by Mikapoh on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:36 am

[quote="tycham"]
mrquery wrote:Hello Harbethian Followers,

Simply beautiful I must say. It makes me want to buy a P3 now but I have
to do up my room first."[/color][/i]


This again proves that room acoustic is very critical in our process to a good sound. A sure thing not to be neglected when you have the equipments inside a dedicated room. I think I should explore this area further and the good thing is I've someone with great experience here to guide me Smile

Maybe electrostatic speakers do not need such treatment. Their open sound is already very amazing to listen (my jaw dropped when I first listen to my friend's set-up in not so properly treated room). Maybe the one pair resided in WongKN house also need no acoustic treatment. Correct me if I'm wrong. (sorry a bit out of topic).






Mikapoh
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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 5 Empty Re: Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

Post by sleme on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:08 pm

mrquery wrote:Hello Harbethian Followers,

Now with that out of the way, I would like to check opinions whether hl p3 (around RM2000 used) is comparable enough to compact 7 (around RM4000 used, correct me if I'm wrong).

Please don't bring up the price differences since what I would like to know is, if somebody can live with hl p3 before upgrading to compact 7. Bottom line is, what will I be missing from hl p3 compare to compact 7?

The circumstances which keep me from acquiring the compact 7 are:
a. I am poor (translate to many expenses here and there)
b. WAF (cannot really go audiotion here / audition there plus I wanted her to get accostumed first with the least expensive harbeth)
c. Mobility (I only got 9months to know if I will stay in the same project or assigned new location projects)

Oh associate equipment used are arcam delta int amp, pc source (WAV file via mf dac), focus BS speaker, that's it. Music genre, mostly all (but don't concern me if harbeth is fully tuned for acoustic / unamplified sound)


I started my journey with Harbeths via a used HLP3. Gave me years of enjoyment until I came across a used C7 which replaced it. What I miss the most is the ability of the P3s to 'disappear'. The tonality of both speakers to me are comparable with the C7 having a bit more pace to the sound without compromising on the sweet mid-range. Nowhere close to anything resembling, "tizzy sharp highs", to my ears at least. Another thing to note, I did somewhat 'regret' changing the P3 to the C7 initially as the room where it was placed was somewhat too small for the C7. The bigger box needs room to breathe. Now its placed in a living room and where the p3 used to somewhat be overwhelmed by sounding hard at high volumes, the c7 fills the room with ease.

Having said that, despite being happy with the C7, I did indulge in a new p3esr last year using it as a 2nd system in the bedroom.

Associated equipment have evolved from Naim, Copland, Quad and currently Bryston. Hope it helps!

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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 5 Empty Re: Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

Post by ryder on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:16 pm

sleme wrote:
Associated equipment have evolved from Naim, Copland, Quad and currently Bryston. Hope it helps!

May I ask which Naim and which Bryston?

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