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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

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Post by tycham on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:27 pm

There is this Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 2 Images10C7 ES for sale @ slightly less than the price of a brand new P3ESR.


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Post by Mikapoh on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:59 pm

WOW.....where? Mind to share with us here?




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Post by ryder on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:09 pm

Mikapoh, I presume he is referring to the ad below. Speakers are the older ES2 version and in Singapore. Price not mentioned.

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=91616.0


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Post by Apole on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:17 pm

i think dis is a link..
http://www.echoloft.com/cgi-bin/buysell2/YaBB.pl?board=hifi&action=display&num=1297981369&start=0
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Post by Mahler 9 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:14 pm

Congrate khlim_77. Welcome to true music paradise with the lovely P3ES. Welcome mikapoh too, a harbeth owner sooner as well.

Hi khlim_77, your review here is very nice. Hope you will register in Harbeth usergroup and post your lovely words there. The quietness you keep emphased is, imho, because the C7 sound is very stable, majestic and control. This kind of presentation is like you sit in a nice cozy concert hall listen nice live jazz or nice classical music with all the audience fully fall into music and concentrated on the music performance that give the impression of quietness and gorgeous feeling....I am more then 7yrs with Harbeth, still love them very much...purified me into music...great speaker that let me listen to music but not audio..

Hi mikapoh, the hot selling p3 in current harbeth line is the P3esr. Not the p3es which is 2 generation older (p3 to p3es to p3es2 to p3esr). As for the c7es3 sound, what I can say is, if you value real unamplified music instrument sound and human voice, then the C7ES3 can never disappointed you and can really last..But if you compare it with audio produced by others brand, then the C7es3 may sound too natural and other sound is exagerated easy to attract attention.

If price is right and condition is good, either 7, being c7, c7es, c7es2 or c7es3, all play wonderfull musics..



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Post by moderneagle on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:09 am

Hi everyone, just wanted to let you guys know that I too just became a member of the Harbeth club last night. I bought the last pair of C7 that Tropical Audio had. It's a 30th Anniversary with Tiger Ebony veneer and the different from standard internal wiring. I agree with Mahler, the speakers I had before this was much more 'exciting' to listen to but that could be because it has the 'flavouring' or 'colouring' particularly in the highs and mids. With the C7, I'm still acclimatising, getting used to the neutrality.

Cheers,
Ivan

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Post by Mikapoh on Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:44 am

Hi moderneagle, I thought Tropical Audio has 2 pairs of C7s with 30th Anniversary? Who had bought the other pair? So fast huh?







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Post by moderneagle on Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:56 am

Hi Mikapoh I could have heard wrong, maybe there's still one more after mine. I was given the standard wiring kit in case I didn't like the ones that came on the 30th Ann. I don't know what I like or not haha. Sam said the standard ones sounds better to him with his Quads. I'm using the Leben CS-300.

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Post by khlim_77 on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:39 pm

Hi all
i just change the title to harbeth speaker, hope that all of us like it

Makler 9, thank on your explain, seriously i dun know how to mention the feeling, i got no idea how is the sound character on old model C7, the model that i hear C7ES3 is the model that i really like , with simple setup , 1 cdp + 1 int amp , sound perfect to me
back to my speaker , bi-wire , must i change my speaker cable to bi-wire or remain the speaker jumper ?
Mikapoh , some 1 is selling the studio 150 at sg , hahahah , dun ever kill me
http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=91638.0




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Post by Mahler 9 on Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:52 pm

Hi khlim,
If you got a pair of ready jumper you can just try it. Otherwise, do not waste money on jumper. The original jumper is good enough. If you do not have bi-wire speaker cable, same too, do not waste money on bi-wire. Harbeth, with original jump and single wire play wonderfull music as well. Now, what you can do is rediscover all your music collections. You are classical music listener, I very sure you will love the P3es more and more and listen your old collection again and again. By then, spend your money on more albums....Enjoy the musics....

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Post by terencebee on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:39 am

Hi all,

I have a amplifier Quad 606 mk1 for sale... pls sms me at 012-3933896 anytime ya.. i ll give good price for this amp ya..
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Post by khlim_77 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:53 pm

Hi all
will much improvement if i change my amp from Audiolab 8000A to tube amp ?
my target is on Bewitch 300B or Audio space AS-6I ( KT88 )
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Post by Mikapoh on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:28 pm

Hi khlim,
I thought you said never come back and upgrade your things huh? So fast wanna change your amp Rolling Eyes

I bet it is going to be decent improvement but I've read Harberth is good for solid state amp. Running 'em with tube might further enrich its sound until being too warm of its presentation. Why not you go for audiolab power amp? cheaper route yet very effective one. Just my 2cents thought.








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Post by Mahler 9 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:34 am

Try other UK amp like onix, arcam, creek, exposer or Japan Marantz. Tube is good but avoid all taiwan, china tube amp regardless of what kind of tube.

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Post by ryder on Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:37 am

Chinese tube amps especially the cheaper ones may have more reliability issues when compared to cheap solid-state amps in the long-run although the sound can be quite glorious. You may want to keep that in mind as maintenance may be more costly ie. bringing the amp for repair once in two years etc. I've owned the Sonic Frontiers Line 1 tube preamp -though it's an established brand the unit have gone to the workshop three times in three years. In the 3rd year I got fed up and sold it off at a giveaway price.

I understand you are on a budget, and moreover it may not be feasible to spend a lot of money on an integrated amp to match the relatively cheap P3s. Most solid-state amps in the same price bracket sound more or less the same with minor differences. If you are looking for a significant improvement you may be disappointed. The better sounding amps cost a bit more, regrettably. Out of the amps listed by Malher9 the Creek and Exposure is worth looking at. I would not take the Arcam as it is flat sounding. I rate the Audiolab higher than the Arcam integrateds.

Lastly it depends on what you are looking for when considering an amp upgrade. Are you looking for more dynamics and life, or are you looking for more tube-like warmth.

The upgrade game can be a vicious cycle and will go on and on. If you can live with the Audiolab I suggest you stick with it for the time being until you are really dying to try another amp.

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Post by noodle88 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:52 am

Hi all, tube amps can be very dynamic also. Tube amp like CJ and unison research r good.

Khim,

Not sure a 300b amp can drive your speaker nicely.

Cheers,
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Post by mugenfoo on Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:33 am

noodle88 wrote:Hi all, tube amps can be very dynamic also. Tube amp like CJ and unison research r good.



...until a Krell comes along ! Twisted Evil
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Post by hasnul on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:01 am

AS-300b works wonderfully with C7. Ive tried it with Audio Space 300b at a friends house in Subang. I would evade Bewitch because the character is very laidback. While the Audio Space is lively with dynamics like Sun Audio but come at a higher price.
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Post by moderneagle on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:47 pm

Had a home audition with the P3ESR and C7 driven by the the Leben CS-300. The C7 were easier to drive than the P3. Bass was more taut and present. This from a 12wpc EL-84. Then bought an old Quad 606 Mk1 and it is a pretty good match to the C7. The Quad with it's 140wpc power rating can pull off dynamic material more convincingly although it is somewhat less sweet with vocals than the Leben but it's only slightly. At the kind of volume I listen to (low to medium never louder than 11 o'clock on the Leben and no more than 35/65 on the DAC2 preamp to the Quad), both amps work well with the C7. I suspect the Quad will be better for the P3 due to the P3's lower sensitivity.

Yours, non-fussy noob midfier, moderneagle.

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Post by Mikapoh on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:51 pm

moderneagle, did you manage to pull the trigger on C7? or the P3esr?
Can you share your review of its sound?


Thanks.






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Post by moderneagle on Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:47 am

Yes I did pull the trigger on the C7. It sounds great, I'm very happy with it. Everything about it sounds right to me, acoustic instruments and voices sound as they should. Balanced and almost transparent with a certain pleasantness about the music it plays that makes one forget about the speakers and the electronics. Ok, I think that's all I can say. One more thing, I only wish I got the P3 as well for the bedroom upstairs so that we can play music to make love to naturally.

Yours, Harbeths are for making love to, moderneagle.

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Post by khlim_77 on Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:01 pm

just sometime feel that Audiolab drive harbeth sound abit dry , or maybe already tired on the audiolab sound so looking on changing amp
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Post by samn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:27 pm

My best suggestion for you is to add 8000P to your 8000A. Audiolab and Harbeth are supposed to complement each other well. I remember reading positive reviews about them in What HiFi mags. Try find a good 8000P and audition them with your Harbeth, you will notice the differences, but I wouldn't know if it would be to your tastes, but no harm to try. Very Happy
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Post by Mikapoh on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:51 pm

This is what I proposed. Get the 8000p. It should enrich the sound. Sometimes is our mind that plays the trick not our ears. There is always a tendency to upgrade after new stuff has been brought into the chain. It is like a cycle...




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Post by VS126 on Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:12 pm

"I only wish I got the P3 as well for the bedroom upstairs so that we can play music to make love to naturally".
This shd push up the price of Harbeth speakers.
Tagline "Speakers To Make Love To" No rubbers I hope.



Last edited by VS126 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:10 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Additional Info)
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Post by Mahler 9 on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:14 pm

If you feel audiolap dry sound, you are right. Its basic characteristic is really dry and also bland. It is one the over rated UK amp. It sound is unmusical and colored (NO matter how, with either B&W or P3, you can feel you still listen to audiolab sound). Adding an 8000P like your are moving aside, dry still dry. Time to get rid from audiolab.


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Post by VS126 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:37 am

A lot of harbeth diehards boast of Natural sound and match it with clinical dry audiolab amp and still states it is good match. Match it with colored tube amps and still Natural Sound. Harbeth goes with any amp and still makes Natural sound.
Makes one wonder what is Natural Sound??? How natural can it be when it comes out from poly cone and box cabinets. Must be excellent marketing.
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Post by moderneagle on Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:41 am

Alan Shaw believes his speakers contribute like 95.8% of the sound from the source that reaches the ears. % my own unbiased qualified professional opinion as a troll after visiting the Harbeth forum for an unnatural number of hours during working hours. Based on this theory, any amp should work excellently with Harbeths as long as it is er.. working within it's design parameters to provide controlled amperes. Which of course is what a Quad does, at least those made in Huntingdon, England and preferably a Mark I of any model. My favorite is the 606, not that I've even heard any other.

I also cannot determine scientifically what a natural sound is, so my own definition is it's one that comes closest to what I imagine the singer or instrumentalist would sound like if she were to perform live in person in my bedroom while I'm half asleep or up to no good.

Yours, hyping things up, moderneagle.

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Post by Mikapoh on Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:52 am

If it is the "natural sound" you are after, I bet there are many establish speakers manufacturers whose products are also excelled in this area. ProAc slogan even stated "perfectly natural". But how close to the real thing is very subjective. I believe Harbeth is not only famous for its nature sound reproduction but things like tonal balance, smooth top ends etc that make them so special. Other speakers have own specialty too. Often are the combination of those sound characteristics that make you choose them, and not only the common word "natural".





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Post by tycham on Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:59 am

VS126 wrote:
Makes one wonder what is Natural Sound??? How natural can it be when it comes out from poly cone and box cabinets.

Playing the album Favorite Chinese Instrumentals by The Jing Ying Soloists on a lazy Sunday afternoon, heard faint but audible sound of chinese cymbals from afar. Thought there is a funeral procession down the road, and look out of my window, only to realise that I had been fooled by the Harbeth HL P3!
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Post by Mikapoh on Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:22 pm

This shows the transparency of the sound...I am going to take a grab on that album. Hahaha.





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Post by VS126 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Many times I am fooled by my Open Baffle Audio Nirvana Speakers on certain track by Shelby Lynne, that I am hearing someone ringing the doorbell and when I rushed to the door, only to find out that it is part of the music.
Also, when playing Poetry of the Mountains (JVC)....my daughter ran out of the bedroom looking for birds chirping....is that Natural sound???

By the way, my DIY Open Baffle speaker only costs less than RM2K played from a laptop and using a 2 watt tube amp.

BTW, if you believe that yr Harbeth contributes 95.8% of the sound, then why are you wasting yr money with the Leben and WW Starlight?

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Post by adrian4454 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:25 pm

Hi VS,
Certain of sound is easier to emulate than other. Sound like door bell, telephone ringing, buzzer, alarm.. as the note is fairly discrete...

Human, music instruments will be more challenging. But natural sounding is an absolute subjective description, that we human trying to make sense over the sound we hear...

Dont worry, as long as one feel adequate natural... it will be good enough...~~ dont worry about what the other will say, that include me~

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Post by VS126 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:40 pm

Chinese Funeral Cymbals ain't Natural.

Birds Chirping cld be Natural.

So when one mentions that ONLY certain speakers create Natural Sound, does it means that all other speakers create unnatural sound?

IMHO, speakers shd be as Neutral as possible and not create a sound of it's own. It cld sound good with many amps/source but NOT the same sound with any amps/source.
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Post by Mikapoh on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:16 pm

I tend to agree with adrian4454 that sound effect re-produced from speakers like doorbell, telephone ringing & so on can deceive our ears. During a movie scene there was a door-knocking effect, then suddenly 2 friends have been fooled, thinking the neighbor was knocking our doors...Even a cat meow ringing tone played by cell phone could make ppl believe there was a baby cat in the office!












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Post by Mikapoh on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:17 pm

I tend to agree with adrian4454 that sound effect re-produced from speakers like doorbell, telephone ringing & so on can deceive our ears. During a movie scene there was a door-knocking effect, then suddenly 2 friends have been fooled, thinking the neighbor was knocking our doors...Even a cat meow ringing tone played by cell phone could make ppl believe there was a baby cat in the office!












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Post by VS126 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:10 pm

So yr Iphone also produce Natural Sound?

What is Natural Sound???as opposed to Neutral(without adding or subtracting from the original) Sound???

Isn't that a Marketing Term by Harbeth rather than using Neutral Sound???

Can any Harbeth Diehards tell me the difference btw Natural and Neutral with relation to Sound??


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Post by moderneagle on Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:32 pm

VS126 wrote:Many times I am fooled by my Open Baffle Audio Nirvana Speakers on certain track by Shelby Lynne, that I am hearing someone ringing the doorbell and when I rushed to the door, only to find out that it is part of the music.
Also, when playing Poetry of the Mountains (JVC)....my daughter ran out of the bedroom looking for birds chirping....is that Natural sound???

By the way, my DIY Open Baffle speaker only costs less than RM2K played from a laptop and using a 2 watt tube amp.

BTW, if you believe that yr Harbeth contributes 95.8% of the sound, then why are you wasting yr money with the Leben and WW Starlight?


Err.. I think you misunderstood me sir. The 95.8% is what I computed Alan Shaw believes in and by that, I meant I simply pluck the biggest percentage over 90 I could think of from the sky. And the simple reason I bought the Leben and the Starlight was because of consumer rights - the Leben having been triggered by a certain Joeling with his OMG post and the other being a case of just in case. Both, I'm happy to report, I'm happy with, even though I cannot find scientific justification as to why. And you are right bro, chinese funeral cymbals ain't natural, if my Harbeths decide to play those at night, I'll be scared shitless.

BTW, I just bought an old Meridien 506 CDP last night with the curved lens assembly (as any consumer has a right to) because it is "legendary" and I need one and it looks cool in a retro fashion just like the Harbeths. So far so good. My only hope is that it doesn't mess with the natural sound of the Compact 7. (Haha just crapping on you bro. I agree that many other speakers also sound natural and neutral e.g. HLP3, SHL5, Monitor 30 etc).

Yours, scared of night funeral sounds, moderneagle. Smile

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Post by VS126 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:05 pm

Happy Listening,

Cheers Bro.

Do not worry, if it is unnatural, Harbeth will not produce.
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Post by ryder on Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:41 pm

VS126 wrote:So yr Iphone also produce Natural Sound?

What is Natural Sound???as opposed to Neutral(without adding or subtracting from the original) Sound???

Isn't that a Marketing Term by Harbeth rather than using Neutral Sound???

Can any Harbeth Diehards tell me the difference btw Natural and Neutral with relation to Sound??

If I interpret it correctly, from the nature of your first post here in this thread you seem to disagree that the Harbeth sounds natural since you've mentioned that they are constructed from polycones and boxes. FWIW the terms neutral and natural are difficult to define as different folks have different perception as to how neutral or natural his/he speakers sound like. The conceptual definition of the term "neutral" is free from colouration. Can we define how neutral or natural one's system sounds like. Every speaker is coloured to a certain extent ie. not neutral, and it's our ears that tell us how neutral that speaker or sound is as a guesstimate. It is a complex thing if one analyzes the whole thing. The sound comes through the source in the recording studio, the sound engineers tailor the music to sound most desirable to his ears *presumably* with a goal in achieving neutrality, it gets recorded in a format either digital audio files or CDs, played through components(players, DAC, amplifiers) where each and every one of them impart a certain characteristic to the sound(unless one claims all components sound the same) and lastly to the speakers which by far are the most coloured among the rest that dictate how the end result should sound like. All components are coloured, and some are more coloured than others. If all things added up, can we really say for certain that system A is more neutral that system B? My belief is all components are coloured to a certain extent and colourations will always be present. One cannot achieve perfection.

Natural is a different term. Again there is no benchmark to define natural. Heck sometimes I find music from my computer speakers to sound more natural than some hifi systems.

Some claim to build their systems to approach neutrality as close as possible as that is the right way to go about it. Others go by their ears and assemble their systems to sound the best to his ears, possibly with some colouration or a lot of it. If you ask me I would say Harbeth are not neutral and are coloured, but they sound natural compared to a lot of speakers out there. Don't quite understand why Harbeth is being attacked here.

One thing that I agree with VS126 is Harbeth may have employed marketing tactics in using the term "natural" in the description of their products, but they do it solely in their own user forum and don't promote their products by advertising when compared to other manufacturers. Which companies don't employ marketing in promoting their products. Most good words and reviews are posted by actual owners themselves. Anyway most speaker or equipment manufacturers use fancy taglines as well. As far as I know Harbeth is one of the few companies that do not advertise to promote their products or pay magazine reviewers to do the same unlike some other manufacturers.






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Post by mugenfoo on Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:52 pm

lol!
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Post by Mikapoh on Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:18 pm

Very well elaborate, ryder. This should clear up the debate here. Surprised








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Post by khlim_77 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:35 pm

my advise to some ppl here is please throw away your speaker and stay inside the jungle then u can really enjoy the natural sound, for sure your can enjoy the bird voice and even monkey sound , maybe some time you can ask your friend to call you coz you just wish to hear the phone ring.
to me i m very respect to the pro design on the pro product, ppl that did a lot of R & D , testing and research, there is impossible ppl product so famous , selling like a hot cake in the world without any knowledge on their design , or just simply put a "Natural" wording there then can so popular

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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:20 am

khlim_77 wrote:my advise to some ppl here is please throw away your speaker and stay inside the jungle then u can really enjoy the natural sound, for sure your can enjoy the bird voice and even monkey sound , maybe some time you can ask your friend to call you coz you just wish to hear the phone ring.
to me i m very respect to the pro design on the pro product, ppl that did a lot of R & D , testing and research, there is impossible ppl product so famous , selling like a hot cake in the world without any knowledge on their design , or just simply put a "Natural" wording there then can so popular



Maybe they are in the wrong forum and should be forumming at www.outdoors.net or www.junglelife.net

here, its all about speakers, amps, CD players , cables ,etc etc and all things manufactured & "un-natural".

geek
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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:25 am

moderneagle wrote:Alan Shaw believes his speakers contribute like 95.8% of the sound from the source that reaches the ears. % my own unbiased qualified professional opinion as a troll after visiting the Harbeth forum for an unnatural number of hours during working hours. Based on this theory, any amp should work excellently with Harbeths as long as it is er.. working within it's design parameters to provide controlled amperes. Which of course is what a Quad does, at least those made in Huntingdon, England and preferably a Mark I of any model. My favorite is the 606, not that I've even heard any other.

I also cannot determine scientifically what a natural sound is, so my own definition is it's one that comes closest to what I imagine the singer or instrumentalist would sound like if she were to perform live in person in my bedroom while I'm half asleep or up to no good.

Yours, hyping things up, moderneagle.

This would be the same Alan Shaw that says all amps sound the same or are unimportant, etc etc .... but was recently also thinking about selling a Harbeth-branded Amp.

This smacks a sh!tload of hypocrisy if you ask me ...

And then there are some (ex-)forummer here who will follow AS's words to the end of the world and champion AS' cockamamie opinions as the gospel truth. Amen.
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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:19 am

That is what I am trying to bring forth...Alan's bullshit marketing strategy and those got suckered into it.

That all amps sounded the same, cables are only for fools, that Harbeth speakers determine the end signature sound no matter what amps or source you use.

That diehards Harbethians thinks that Harbeth makes Natural Sound and is the best speakers and if you are not using Harbeth, you are listening to colored sound. Maybe they are all brainwashed, until they opened their minds to listen to another speaker brand.

I remember once I went to the local Harbeth dealer, really intending to listen to the great Harbeth Natural Sound after all the praises i read here. The moment I walked into the showroom, I was greeted by a lady there and she immediately asked me what speaker I am using and told me that Harbeth will be the last speaker I will ever buy. (Brainwashing starts early).

During the Demo, I asked the nice gentleman there why the highs are so metallic sounding and bass so uncontrolled and boomy. Perhaps I am not acoustomed to Natural sound. (BTW, this is in the main room and speakers is the latest 5 series). Funny thing is that the guy sitting next to me is a diehard Harbeth fan and only realised the bass problem after I highlighted it. Is the brainwashing so powerful???

This is not to discredit the brand but how can a speaker be the best in the world and most natural when it cannot produce proper highs and lows.

To say that the speaker sounds the same no matter what you feed it is totally hogwash and wonder how people can be led to believe the claim. As Ryder states, every component have a certain color to it and creates a potpouri of different sound. How can so many different sound when fed into an Harbeth emerged into Natural sound??? Is there a DSP component inside the box???

Above is just my own opinion and not to state that Harbeth speakers are all bad. Just that some misinformed Harbeth owners trumpeted it too much. Maybe they shd go out and listen to more that is available.
I hope that I hv not offended anyone and if I do, my sincere apologies.




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Post by ryder on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:36 am

VS126, everybody is entitled to his opinion so don't worry too much about it. You brought up some good and interesting points about Alan's strategy that somehow succeeded in getting some gullible folks to treat him like a saint. A good example is CNYee, a C7ES3 owner who took his words for real - all amplifiers sound the same and the Harbeth is the best in the world for natural sound and no speakers come next to it. The Harbeth forum is the first to practice extreme moderation whereby posts are screened through by the moderators before they actually appear on the forum page. All opinions from others are considered as not Harbeth's viewpoint(not facts, and somehow interpreted as not accurate) and Harbeth's viewpoints are considered as "Facts". I believe that is the reason that caused a few seasoned forummers to stopped posting over there and it's the same old faces that continue to contribute to topics not exactly related to audio. What's there to talk when all amps sound the same, all cables are snake oils, speaker stands don't bring an inch difference to the sound etc. and the list goes on.

Not all die-hard Harbeth fans believe that the speakers are the most natural speakers available and that if listening to other speakers we're listening to coloured sound. That would be a little extreme if you ask me. The reality, I believe, is that most if not all audio enthusiasts will think that their systems or speakers sound the most natural, neutral and the best, whatever. As I've mentioned earlier, there isn't any benchmark to accurately or objectively determine that speaker A sounds more neutral or natural than speaker B. It's all based on instincts and experience gained throughout the years when listening to various speakers and systems.

This is not to discredit the brand but how can a speaker be the best in the world and most natural when it cannot produce proper highs and lows.
I don't know who you are referring to that claimed the Harbeth speaker is the best in the world. It may be the best sounding speaker to his ears but best in the world will certainly ruffle some feathers. What I'm intrigued by your statement above is on the Harbeth's inability in producing *proper* highs and lows. May I ask what is your basis in coming up with that supposition, or is it a fact? Are you referring to the characteristics or nature of the highs and lows, or the extent of the frequency extremes ie. treble not extended or bass not going low enough in the spectrum?

It can be amusing how different folks perceive sound. Most folks who are not into Harbeth thought the highs are too smooth and rolled off while you felt the highs are metallic. As for boomy bass, the term boomy is easily written on paper but can represent a few scenarios in real life. Boomy can be seen as a negative aspect in a system in the sense the bass dominates the room with a long decay. For some folks it can also be a case where the bass resonates or reverberate *naturally*(again, controversial term) as opposed to a tight one-note bass. The question of which bass quality is more accurate remains contentious -I believe it's a matter of preference as all speakers(not only Harbeth) have a different bass quality.

In the defense of Harbeth(by the Harbeth team, not actual owners), they usually bring up the room and effective bass trapping in addressing complaints from owners regarding boomy bass. Bass problems mostly occur with speakers that have large drivers as the amount of bass and low frequencies that got pumped out will mostly dominate a room that's untreated. Smaller speakers will usually fare much better due to the lack of scale and limitations in the bass department.

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Post by sph on Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:22 am

Well explained by ryder.
Whether its is "natural" or not is a matter of perception.

Every company will market their products with certain catch words. Harbeth uses the word "natural". Others use "neutral".

Just a few days ago, I listened to a Harbeth demo. Like VS126 had experienced, I found the highs a little shrill after awhile. It wasn't what I liked to hear. But is this natural sounding? I don't know. But some people may be able to tolerate it and may be accustomed to it. Perhaps I too was accustomed to such shrillness before I upgraded my equipment.

If Harbeths-diehards swear that Harbeths are the ONLY natural sounding speakers, then why are there other make/brand of speakers out there that are doing well. Proac, Sonus Faber, Audio Physic and many more.

Some people will swear by Sonus Faber, some will swear by Proac. I believe all these are good speaker, Harbeth included. Each speaker has its own merits. The choice of speakers all boils down to an individual's taste and the cash one is willing to pay.

I will not criticize Harbeth owners and fans for their opinions of their speakers. They are entitled to own and enjoy the speakers of their choice. By the same token, I hope they do not criticize or look down on owners of other brands.

Since this thread is dedicated to Harbeth owners and fans, we should allow them to express their opinions of their Harbeth speakers. Let them share their experiences with their fellow Harbeth owners.

Enjoy!

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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:43 am

i can safely say that Ryder who is very familiar with Harbeth speakers is NOT one of those who get suckered by AS' opinions and ideas.

Only a certain type of people will simply believe what they are told just because the hifi designer/owner says so.... (but Ryder is not one of them and like most of us, have logic thinking & rational power to decide for ourselves).

Same goes for that Roy Gandy fellow who says that LP wet-cleaning and that VTA adjustments are unnecessary. This guy obviously has not spent more than 3 weeks in the tropics and certainly has not seen how LPs can get greasy, sticky and mouldy in tropical humid climate.


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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:55 am

VS126 wrote:

I remember once I went to the local Harbeth dealer, really intending to listen to the great Harbeth Natural Sound after all the praises i read here. The moment I walked into the showroom, I was greeted by a lady there and she immediately asked me what speaker I am using and told me that Harbeth will be the last speaker I will ever buy. (Brainwashing starts early).

During the Demo, I asked the nice gentleman there why the highs are so metallic sounding and bass so uncontrolled and boomy. Perhaps I am not acoustomed to Natural sound. (BTW, this is in the main room and speakers is the latest 5 series). Funny thing is that the guy sitting next to me is a diehard Harbeth fan and only realised the bass problem after I highlighted it. Is the brainwashing so powerful???


Hahahah , Vince, i think i know who you're referring to ...
Its most likely the Tropical Audio guy Sam's sister who is just as much a Harbeth charlatan as Sam himself.

" Only Harbeths sound natural, all others are coloured (Sam's favourite word used to denigrate anything and everything that is not Harbeth or Quad).
Quad Amp is the only amp suitable to drive the Harbeths. Everything else are also coloured."

"Spending on cables are pointless and a waste of money." (but ironically, he uses big fat thick vdH-Clearwater cables to connect the Harbeths to the Quad amps).

And that being said..... Sam's die-hard followers almost all have the same hallmark signature of this herd-effect following in their systems:
- They all use the filmsy locally fabricated open frame metal stands that rings like a church bell (maybe this makes the Harbeth sound even more au-Naturel..., i dunno! )

- They all use this local cheap-n-nasty "Mains Voltage Stabiliser thingy" of the 1980s era for computers.

- They all use the RM3.00 pasar-road black interconnects and swear that it gives the best sound in the world.


Highly amusing... these peculiar bunch of folks.
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