Re: Linn - discussion thread

[cmboy]

Unfortunately our best quality veneer plywoods are exported out leaving crap behind. Malaysia isn't in the same track whereas Japan keep the best stuff for their home market consumption. But then possibly over 90% of their produce are every bit as good to high expectation.

Anyway, I do have some confidence that our local ply is actually based on wood thats far better than EU sourced wood. We have tropical wood, just that the ply in circulation isn't manufactured to fantastic standards. I could dare say the west have better technology and materials for this kind of manufacture, thus people will tend to think that their stuff is better than ours anytime. A long time ago I worked in a knock down furniture industry factory set up by Americans and learnt hellava lot from the sawmill to various mills to the finished product, including the highest quality finishing proceedures. This knowledge gained have paid off time and again.

[Rajacatur]

Am the proud owner of a 1980s Linn Sondek. Recently fitted with the cirkus upgrade and power supply is the Mose/Hercules. Unit has had the motor changed to the new motor and springs and rubber grommets replaced. Am looking at the next upgrade and considering the Naim Armegeddon. What say you dear forumers? Is this the way to go or should i stay true to the Linn Path and look at Lingo 2 (expencheap!)? Your comments and suggestions appreciated.

[zulkifar]

Rajacatur,
Without having the experience of a direct comparison, I cannot comment on the Mose/Hercules set-up. However, between the Lingo and Armageddon, it's a matter of personal preference. I suspect the same can be expected from the Hercules because the difference is in the design of the power supply. The AC motor remains. If you have a set-up rig for the LP12 and you can DIY, why not carry out a direct comparison between the 3. Then you will know for certain which suits you best in your own environment.

[scubanasa]

If I am not mistaken & based from the other forum, Armageddon is best for Naim's tonearm e.g Aro, while Lingo is for Linn's tonearm e.g. Akito etc.. Btw, Aro has been discontinued.. I'd rather go for Lingo & purchase/maintenance direct from the Linn's dealer here.

[cmboy]

IMHO, if you already have Hercules, the Armageddon is technically, A DOWNGRADE.

It was a radical development to improve the spartan Basic PSU (similar to whats found in lots of budget Rega TT) implemented in pre-Valhalla LP12. The Basic or Armageddon PSU isn't as frequency stable compared to the Valhalla or Hercules circuitry which is based on frequency oscillator and QUARTZ LOCKED circuitry. Lingo is an excellent upgrade if you can acquire it.

[zulkifar]

In the transition to Aro, my Ittok had both the Lingo and Armageddon. In my opinion the Geddon provided better dynamics with the Ittok. Its sound quality simply belies its simplicity. May be in terms of detail, the Lingo had a slight advantage so as I said, it’s really a matter of preference, and not to mention whatever else within the combination. However, the quantum leap is going DC and that's the general consensus.

[cmboy]

IMHO and firm view, the Geddon stands as a radical and very dated improvement for existing phase shift psu found in pre Valhalla LP12. Technically its useable for intent and purpose but there isn't any element of precision in its design. Its still simple circuitry that serve as an isolation and step down transformer to the motor. The Geddon still rely on stable 50hz to have the speed right. Any shift in mains supply will make the speed vary. Motor vibration is still high and the effect is transmitted back to the cartridge and people would interpret this as better dynamics.
The Lingo is a far superior PSU superceding and improving where the Valhalla design left off. It spins up to speed for 20 seconds, then switches down to one quarter its output voltage allowing the platter to almost free spin on its own. The effect is like negligible motor vibration to the platter offering lower noise floor. Lingo is expensive because of a more elaborate and optimized design for the LP12.
Linn have come up with their very expensive Radikal DC motor upgrage kit. The motor used here was after a very careful selection (referring to a mention by David Williamson from Linn) and its housed in a custom and very well damped cylinder sitting in place of the old AC synchronous motor. The housing damping layer is sourced from a NASA vendor. Space age material used here?. With all these, its of course the price is passed to you.
Not any old DC motor can be good for belt drive TT's. I've seen some which are very noisy (some Matsushita motors seen) but considering some TT manufacturers have worked around this by housing and damping it very heavily, then isolate it entirely from the table. Why DC is a logical choice? Its because the PSU and control circuitry is far easier, cheaper to implement. There's no need for AC phase shift, frequency oscillators and high voltage amplifiers. In actual fact, the Valhalla is a risky and hazardous design, but what to do? reasonable cost, compact size, practicality have to be achieved, and lastly its never the last word in reliability and longevity.
My 2 sen.

[zulkifar]

Obviously you have done your reading and I totally agree with you.
On paper the Geddon is a non-starter (just like valves vs transistors). However, like the thousands of Geddon users, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and for that reason they remain happy. The OP was trying to find out whether ‘upgrading’ to a Geddon makes sense and I merely related my happy experience...time for Peter Green’s Black Magic Woman
BTW, I know of only 2 current manufacturers of DC motors for the LP12 and both will take the Lingo/Geddon to the cleaners.

[cmboy]

1. Geddon can be a logical upgrade from the old basic phase shift PSU.
Geddon can be DIY manufactured to reduce the cost of importing one, save for a used one found somewhere.
There's no rocket science inside, just a 400VA tranny and some phase shift circuitry. Again, the trick in this is that it serves as an isolating transformer strictly to power the motor, thus a cleaner AC voltage applied, nothing more.
A likely 3rd party candidate is the Pro-ject Speedbox SE II, and I understand this cost in the region of RM1.2K, cheap,no?
Valhalla PCB, which is a long discontinued item could be found and buying a used one is tricky unless one can refurbish it with new parts for another lease of life. Used ones are either spoilt or due for total refurbishment.
2. The ready available Hercules II can be ordered from Ebay. Either DIY fit or get someone competent to fit this nicely. It have the convenience of 33 & 45rpm switching. Performance and reliability wise, its a re-design with better and hand selected parts, marginal performance improvement from the now obsolete Valhalla. Its fundamentally identical as the Valhalla PSU. Price is quoted on Ebay.
3. Lingo, Lingo II, Radikal. Boils down to whether owner would like to own this because its highly priced and considering Lingo can be highly sought after on the used market.
Upgrade step 1 > 2 > 3 not the reverse.
This is just the motor control department. Obviously there's more of other things to upgrade especially in older LP12 if one is looking forward to a newer performance spec. Its quite costly to upgrade from say a 1979 deck to 1990's specs. Probably the only things retained would be tonearm, top plate, platter and PSU. The rest would be replaced to latest specs.
There you have it.

[noeljs]

HI

Does anyone know who can fine tune my Linn.Please text me his name and number.

Cheers.

Noel

0133424629

[noeljs]

Hi all

Could someone recommend a Linn expert who has passion for Linn and can fine tune my 40 year old linn.

Your recommendations will be appreciated.

Thanks

Noel

0133424629

[harmain]

To say that Lingo is better than Armaggedon is nonsense. LP12 owners upgrade from Lingo to Armageddon but never the other way around. Speed can never be accurate because the spindle hole is never 100% center, the record is never 100% flat and there is stylus drag.
In the LP12 it is worse because there is belt slack, suspension movement and a loose felt mat.
The late Julian Vereker knew what he was designing and could easily use electronics if he wanted to.
If you want speed accuracy better get a Technics or Denon TT and buy a clamp.

[scubanasa]

So, where to have a free listening to LP12? Is it possible? Before I can make up my mind to get Majik LP12... or not.

[sflam]

contact perfect hifi.

[scubanasa]

Went there last month. They do not have LP12 on demo. Apart from that, when I said - how about if I use Naim Stageline... the answer... what is that stageline? No, sorry never heard of it. Funny isn't it.

Then, the answer again, everything must be Linn... the sound wont be nice if it is not Linn. & the LP12 comes with built in phonostage. Lagi pening... haha.

[cmboy]

There IS a Linn LP12 Majik on permanent demo there. Its NOT fitted with a built in phono stage. Built in phono isn't a standard issue with the Majik, unless of course its specially bundled.
The demo set is at Amcorp Mall branch, AFAIK.

[scubanasa]

Thanks cmboy... btw, the PH mentioned earlier was not at Amcorp Mall anyway. Yeah, built in phonostage is another story with more $$$.

[cmboy]

Ok, happy auditioning!

[noeljs]

Ya i found a expert tuner through the grape vine. What a find!

[scubanasa]

At last.... an LP12 spinning   on the hifi rack...

[77006688]

 great to have another lp12 fans. which set up you have on your lp12?

[scubanasa]

Hi... it's Cherry deck, Kore, Black Ittok & DV20X2L... running on Hercules.. 

[77006688]

 great. Is the Black SE arm really better than normal Ittok?

[scubanasa]

Not sure as I haven't heard the standard silver tonearm. IMHO, better than the Pro-ject tonearm in Majik L1P12. Btw, mine has been re-wired.

Perhaps others have a better view on this.



Cheers..

[cmboy]

Note that Ittok is over 30 years in its design and depend a lot of actual condition.There's so many things that can go wrong or deteriorate over the decades. Moreover if it was acquired as a used item, you'll not know its history or previous care. The full potential of the LP12 is unleashed if its correctly setup and tuned to the optimum. The Pro-Ject tonearm is actually a very good product that can replace the Ittok and have its own character due to new and current materials used in the manufacture. Linn didn't make any mistake by selecting the Pro-Ject 9cc as a suitable replacement. Bundled with the Adikt cartridge in the Majik package, it all a worthwhile package for anyone wanting to own a LP12. The Ekos is multiple times more expensive and superior to the Ittok that its not really a replacement for the Ittok although there's similarities in its architecture. Ittok was excellent in its heyday but have its own set of flaws and limitations. All in all, the LP12 Majik package with the 9cc tonearm is a carefully selected and compatible combination that would offer great satisfaction too.
Hope this is not criticism or disrespect with the Ittok (and owners) but my own personal experience with these tonearms.
I own an Ittok too..but I feel its bettered by another TT and tonearm (using the same cartridge) I own by quite a length.

[zulkifar]

Not sure as I haven't heard the standard silver tonearm. IMHO, better than the Pro-ject tonearm in Majik L1P12. Btw, mine has been re-wired.

Perhaps others have a better view on this.



Cheers..

Hi scubanasa, you have a pretty good set-up there especially with the Kore. 
Except for colour, silver and black should sound identical, it's just the later LVIII with integrated arm lifter that sounds better, but black is certainly sexy!
As for the Ittok, the only major problem that's not visible are problem bearings. Do the simple swing and float test to check these out. The thing you must NOT do is to tighten your cartridge with the arm mounted on the LP12! The instruction manual clearly states this. 
Otherwise, the Ittok is an excellent arm which until today can still be mounted with quality moving coils.
Enjoy.

[77006688]

Thanks for sharing. Great info especially the cart. installation method. But in this case, should we dismantle the whole arm to change the cart? What about cart. alignment? Or maybe I misunderstood something??

[cmboy]

You should always dismantle the tonearm especially those with fixed headshell to do a cartridge change. One slip and there goes your tiny tip..and maybe thousands..not a nice feeling after that. Then re setup the cartridge alignment, VTF,VTA, the whole rigmarole.  

[scubanasa]

Not sure as I haven't heard the standard silver tonearm. IMHO, better than the Pro-ject tonearm in Majik L1P12. Btw, mine has been re-wired.

Perhaps others have a better view on this.



Cheers..

Hi scubanasa, you have a pretty good set-up there especially with the Kore. 
Except for colour, silver and black should sound identical, it's just the later LVIII with integrated arm lifter that sounds better, but black is certainly sexy!
As for the Ittok, the only major problem that's not visible are problem bearings. Do the simple swing and float test to check these out. The thing you must NOT do is to tighten your cartridge with the arm mounted on the LP12! The instruction manual clearly states this. 
Otherwise, the Ittok is an excellent arm which until today can still be mounted with quality moving coils.
Enjoy.

Hi Zulkifar,

Have been reading about your writings and stories about LP12 here, cmboy and few others really helps before I decided to get the LP12. Thanks guys!!!

Fyi, my setup is a used unit except the Kore and the DV cart. Bought from a good & reputable Linn dealer, well known worldwide (hope it's not against the forum rules).

Together with the LP12, I was taught how to fix LP12 myself. With the right tools, it can be fix within few hours. Yes! You are right. Fixing the cart to tonearm is not that easy. I don't think I can do that at the moment, but I know how to ensure you are fixing it right. For LP12, yes you will need to dismantle the arm from the deck.
Allignment - for me, I will need the Linn protractor.

Been spinning LPs for the past 2 weeks... and less CD at the moment...  

[zulkifar]

Thanks for sharing. Great info especially the cart. installation method. But in this case, should we dismantle the whole arm to change the cart? What about cart. alignment? Or maybe I misunderstood something??

Hi there, installing a cartridge is similar for almost all arms (some exceptions such as the Graham). Plenty of guide materials available. On the Ittok it is no different EXCEPT because of the bearings, the final tightening of bolts must be done by removing the arm from the LP12. In other words, when finalising the set up(height, alignment, weight, azimuth) just lightly finger tighten the bolts.
Then remove the arm and put the arm pillar on some folded cloth on a table. What I used to do was, my left index finger and thumb will keep the cartridge (put on cartridge guard if available) steady whilst my right hand is tightening the bolts. If I remember correctly, the bolts must be as tight as possible on the Ittok. Careful if your cartridge's body is not metal!
Once done, install the arm pillar back through the collar. (I used to make a small marking on the pillar before removing the arm, saves some time to get back the height.) Double check alignment and azimuth.
If somehow the cartridge moved when you were tightening it, repeat the whole process. This time by first removing the arm to loosen cartridge. Remember, the bloody bearings!
And welcome to the world of Ittok and the LP12..hahahahaaa and now you also know why Ittoks are not working properly..

[77006688]

Hi Zul,

Thanks for the useful details explanation. I am also new user to Lp12 with Ittok arm. will pay attn. to this point next time.

[cmboy]

I consistently use the LP12 setup jig to tune my LP12. Without it, it makes setup and fine tuning a difficult chore.

[scubanasa]

That's the thing.. I went to look for the Linn LP12 setup jig.. and noted that it's not not cheap here and need to order.  

[cmboy]

Not cheap is one matter, its only worthwhile if you're really an enthusiast and will use it either for profit or constant. Thats why many owners just send to a competent dealer to take care of things. A TT is meant to be be used and enjoyed, not a slave to it. Buy a car, open a workshop just to service it thoroughly? Doesn't make economical sense. Don't ask me, I do have a sense of purpose for my acquisition.
Its very possible to have one made but limited to how much precision it can be welded together. I do have the blueprints of the exact item which I plotted out a few years ago, but then, decided to buy the original, better bet than made somewhere at some shady workshop without any precision. Jigs are precision things and they are exactly just that. Compromise on it and you compromise your tuning.

[scubanasa]

Yes, agreed with you. Indeed.

[Rajacatur]

Resurrecting this post with pic of my LP12. It's currently fitted out with Harbans plinth, Cirkus, Armegeddon, Ittok LVII and BM Glider SL. Fettled by cmboy of this forum. 

Suggest other happy LP12 owners also post pics of their pride and joy for other members to enjoy.

[looge]

Great looking LP12, Rajacatur.
 
Mine still has the original ribbed plinth and it even has the drilled hole. For the younger generation LP12 owners, do you know what the hole is for? No its not for putting the stylus brush !
 
Unfortunately when I was doing some listening either the Valhalla psu or the motor or both went kaput; it just stopped without any warning. Still couldn't find the time to look underneath to determine what actually went wrong.
 

Any suggestions on where I could get repairs done, or alternatively I'm also thinking about fitting the Mose Hercules or the Origin Live since pre-owned Lingo and 'Geddon seemed to be hard to come buy, and the Radikal is way too steep for me. Suggestions welcomed.

[Rajacatur]

Hi looge.  Do you still have the lid with the leg stand to go with that hole?

For repairs and setup you could go for Mr. Oh 0122060888 or BS Lee 0163431850. Oh unfortunately due volume takes a bit longer. I use BS Lee for my TT and Oh for electronics.

I have a Mose/Hercules since now use a Geddon if you are interested. Would suggest you also change your motor about RM500 new.  Maybe gone up now with GST. While you are at it get a new set of springs and grommets, belt and felt mat and get the deck setup and bounce adjusted.  It will transform the sound! Enjoy your TT. 

[wingman]

Hi...

My LP12 with Rega RB700 tone arm,4mm base plate & corner bracings for plinth rigidty.

Running on OM5e... Though it's an entry level cart...still its night and day....via Pipit 22L phonostage....

Looking to DIY A "jig" to tune.....

Cheers 

[looge]

Hi looge.  Do you still have the lid with the leg stand to go with that hole?

For repairs and setup you could go for Mr. Oh 0122060888 or BS Lee 0163431850. Oh unfortunately due volume takes a bit longer. I use BS Lee for my TT and Oh for electronics.

I have a Mose/Hercules since now use a Geddon if you are interested. Would suggest you also change your motor about RM500 new.  Maybe gone up now with GST. While you are at it get a new set of springs and grommets, belt and felt mat and get the deck setup and bounce adjusted.  It will transform the sound! Enjoy your TT. 

Hi Rajacatur. No the lid uses the spring hinge but its still the old smoked lid not the new clear one.
Actually I've changed the springs, grommets, belt, mat and armboard but still its not the full Cirkus upgrade.
I'd be interested to have a look at the Mose/Hercules but problem is due to work commitments I'm away for months on end. I'll PM you when I'm back to check if you still haven't sold it by then.
Vinyl is ...

[Rajacatur]

Hi looge. A full cirkus is one of your options. You are only missing the new bearing and inner platter. Cleans up the bass and tightens everything else up.  Loses mid bass hump characteristic of the old bearing which detractors say loses the character of the LP12 and makes sound more CD like. On the other side some will argue that mid bass hump is coloration.

I think your current problem is the Valhalla. Probably blown cap.  You could get it serviced. You could also go for Mose/Herc which gives you 45 rpm and takes the electronics off board which is always a good thing.

Whatever you decide, a full setup and tune should be 1st on your list of things to do.

[looge]

Hi Rajacatur. Getting the Valhalla repaired is certainly one of my options so thanks for the contact nos.
I'm always planning to improve my LP12 but I'm also into digital music now (FLACs, DSDs, etc.) so my attention on the equipment is somewhat divided. 
I find that with the LP12 even minor tweaks can make a palpable difference probably because of the more mechanical nature of analogue gear. Whatever it is I enjoy my vinyls a lot more. The sound may be less clean and less detailed than digital but the musicality and the presence still can't be matched. So I'll keep walking up the upgrade path with my LP12 albeit in smaller leisurely steps.

[scubanasa]

I have just upgraded my PSU Hercules to Lingo & I did the setup myself. Will share a photo soon

Rajacatur, nice harban's plinth over there.
looge, hope u will able to keep your LP12 sing again.

[cmboy]

New Lingo (current model) is around half the cost of a new LP12 Majik. Quite a sum to fork out just for great motor control, but there's nothing else like it. The new Radikal is another design with DC motor..very different from Lingo. If your motor is old, best to replace the motor to new along with Lingo. Lingo isn't ideal with old motor.
From my experience, LP12 is more than meet the eye. Its not so simple or straightforward as it seems. Different state of condition or age of each individual components will dictate how much potential or SQ it can give out. Different age of plinth, subchassis, armboard, top plate, bearing age, all in various state of condition will determine how good it may sound. An late 70's or 80's spec will not sound the same as a Majik LP12 of today. Parts have changed or improved over the decades. Of course the rest rely on tonearm used, cartridge, setup procedure.

[scubanasa]

This is my lovely deck. After a year, now changed from Hercules to Lingo 3.
Have a pleasant weekend & enjoy your hifi..
Cheers,
Nasa.

[Rajacatur]

Nice.............I like!    
I see you are into Jazz Funk.  They used to play that all the time on the LP12 at TRIKAY in the early eighties.

[scubanasa]

Yup i was hooked with funky jazz. But only can go with Lee Ritenour. Others would be Shakatak & Al di Meola in my cd's/vinyl collection, but most of it are rock & classical too.

[looge]

Yup i was hooked with funky jazz. But only can go with Lee Ritenour. Others would be Shakatak & Al di Meola in my cd's/vinyl collection, but most of it are rock & classical too.

Hi scubanasa, Wow! great LP12 set up. Sorry my eyes aren't what they use to be, is that a black Ekos tonearm?
I also find that many of the jazz funk albums are very well recorded and can give a good workout to your system. Yesterday I listened to Stanley Clarke's Up and Manu Katche's Third Round - both with solid bass, good highs and everything in between. The decay in Manu's cymbals is simply amazing.

[scubanasa]

Thanks looge, glad u like it & Rajacatur too.

I got it last year with a good price for this beautiful cherry plinth & added a Kore with the purchase.


Fyi, the tonearm is a black Ittok LVII. I do not know how is the previous Ittok sounds like, but no regret of having one.  I am just happy with it.

[scubanasa]

Hi all,

Just came up in my mind... do u guys do TT session? Just asking...


If not mistaken u guys did during one of the KLIAV show.. have a great weekend guys..

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