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Audiolab - discussion thread

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Post by htkaki on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:34 am

I have something in mind now. Probably getting it next week. This is an improvement model over yours. Very Happy
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Post by WongKN on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:38 am

Ah.... that's the spirit man. Let me know when you get it.
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Post by adrian4454 on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:40 pm

Haha, ya HTkaki.. u should just pull out ur top dollar from your wallet..

Would it be the 700W Krell you are looking for?

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Post by khlim_77 on Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:56 pm

Hi sam
so what is the final result ?
i have a similar situation like u
owning a audiolab 8000A, Marantz cd63KI and B&W dm602 speaker , thinking on adding the power amp,
quad 606, 909 or maybe exposure 3010 ,
may need some advise from the sifu here
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Post by adrian4454 on Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:11 am

Hi Khim77,
Some time ago, I did manage to get a very similar setup like you. Bar the B&W speaker. You may need to tell out your budget and music/sonic performance preference. IMHO, As of today advancement in digital processing, improving to a better quality DAC shall have better chance on sound upgrade.

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Post by mugenfoo on Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:43 am

someone recently augmented his 8000S with a pair of 8000M monoblocks, perhaps he could share his experiences here.

Hope he got a very good deal, and is enjoying a new level of hifi pleasures.
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Post by samn on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:31 am

Thank you very much mugenfoo! I've just brought back the 8000M just now all the way from KL. I've asked my friend in KL to buy it on my behalf first scared other people "sambar dulu". Yes, I broke the rule not listening first before buy. However, since I love Audiolab's sound, I was guessing how far would I go wrong for just adding twin monoblocks to the 8000S. I've just hooked them up just now and my first impression was WOW! I really appreciated your advises and the lead. I would share my experiences here in a few days after I learn my new findings on these monoblocks. One of these days when I get the chance to come down to KL again, perhaps we could meet up for TT. Thank you again. Very Happy

To other forumers and moderators who had given the advises as well, once again thank you. Very Happy
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Post by samn on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:35 am

khlim_77 wrote:Hi sam
so what is the final result ?
i have a similar situation like u
owning a audiolab 8000A, Marantz cd63KI and B&W dm602 speaker , thinking on adding the power amp,
quad 606, 909 or maybe exposure 3010 ,
may need some advise from the sifu here
Hi khlim_77, the final result is a pair of monoblocks from Audiolab 8000M to complement my Audiolab 8000S as a Pre Amp. Thanks to mugenfoo. Very Happy
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Post by khlim_77 on Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:06 pm

HI samn
how much you get the 8000M ? up to the market now shld be not cheap right
in fact how can we more understand on the character of the mono block or Power amp
seriously i m a newbie and still not ready get the picture on that
the different on bi amp and mono block



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Post by samn on Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:48 pm

khlim_77 wrote:HI samn
how much you get the 8000M ? up to the market now shld be not cheap right
in fact how can we more understand on the character of the mono block or Power amp
seriously i m a newbie and still not ready get the picture on that
the different on bi amp and mono block

I got it at a reasonable price after negotiating. The monoblocks are 2 years old silver colour. I'll share my experiences on these monoblocks character later on as I'm still getting used to its new sound which is extending beyond 8000S capabilities.

Just for basic knowledge,
Audiolab 8000P is 100w/ch power amp to drive both channels left and right. Twin binding posts are provided to facilitate biwiring. Top part for Tweeters and bottom part for Midrange/Woofers.

Audiolab 8000M is 125w/ch power amp or appropriately calles a monoblock to drive single channel. Therefore, you need 2 Audiolab 8000M to drive both left and right channels. Twin binding posts are provided as well.

Both 8000P and 8000M require 8000A or 8000Q or 8000S to act as a PreAmplifier.

To Biwire Amp (connecting speakers cable to amp), there are several ways of doing it and experiment, for an example I use 8000A as a PreAmp as follows :
1) Connect High Frequency (HF) speakers cable to 8000A at the bottom binding posts and all Low Frequency (LF) speakers cable to 8000P/8000M at bottom binding posts as well.
2) Connect all HF and LF cable to 8000P/8000M using the twin binding posts. In this case, HF at top and LF at bottom binding posts.

To BiAmp, (connecting preamp to power amp), you may use biamp together with biwire as follows :
1) Connect 8000A to 8000P where 8000A for HF and 8000P for LF.
2) Connect 8000A to 8000P for HF and LF.
3) Connect 8000A to 2X8000M where 8000A for HF and 2X8000M for LF.
4) Connect 8000A to 2X8000M for HF and LF.
5) Connect 8000A to 4X8000M where each 8000M will drive every HF & LF individually for each speaker.

I hope my explanation will help you to understand better. There are many explanations available in the internet. I tried to explain as simple as possible by using Audiolab's manual as references. Pls do read the manual and experiment if you have the chances. If got any wrong information, I hope sifus here can correct me. Thanks.
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Post by awalwah on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:42 pm

HI all, hope u all dont mind, interupting the topic.

I used 8000s as pre to drive a pair of Bel Canto M300 monoblock. Sound wonderfull, with sweet midrange. Clarity of stereo imaging and not to mention a punchy and low deep bass. I have used Arcam Delta 290P before as a power amp. It was sweet and warm but lack of power as it is only 70 watts into 8 ohms.

Anyway, do anyone know where to service my 8000s amp ( a good and reputable service man) Hope you can suggest and share ( hate to deal with people like moody Tong Lee and snobby Adrian?). Thanks, really appreciate it.
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Post by azri on Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:35 am

awalwah, nice to hear you are enjoying the bel canto. class D at its best..
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Post by mllum88 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:55 pm

Hi Guys,
Just saw this posting. A friend has an Audiolab 8000P for sale. Recently serviced by Mr Oh but presently unused as he has now bought an Audio Research Tube power amp.

If there is any interest, please indicate price that you are willing to pay and I will get back to him.

Thanks.


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Post by samn on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:18 pm

Wah...goodies for awalwah and khlim77 if decided to add to their 8000S and 8000A respectively. Good luck guys. Very Happy
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Post by mugenfoo on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:29 pm

awalwah wrote:HI all, hope u all dont mind, interupting the topic.

I used 8000s as pre to drive a pair of Bel Canto M300 monoblock. Sound wonderfull, with sweet midrange. Clarity of stereo imaging and not to mention a punchy and low deep bass. I have used Arcam Delta 290P before as a power amp. It was sweet and warm but lack of power as it is only 70 watts into 8 ohms.

Anyway, do anyone know where to service my 8000s amp ( a good and reputable service man) Hope you can suggest and share ( hate to deal with people like moody Tong Lee and snobby Adrian?). Thanks, really appreciate it.

Have you personally experienced some of Adrian's "snobbiness" first hand ?
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Post by mllum88 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:52 pm

"Have you personally experienced some of Adrian's "snobbiness" first hand ?"

In response to this posting; I would have to say yes. Many years ago, when I first started spending money on Hifi, I used to frequent Adrian's place as he was one of the few dealers who actually carried a lot of the stuff you could only read about in stereophile (this was at a time when stereophile and absolute sound was the size of a paperback like reader's digest).

Although I spent money there and bought a dac, a power amp, and a pre amp from him (mid fi stuff), I always felt that he had no time for people just starting out in Hifi.

Then, his predisposition was towards the big senders like the doctors from Subang Jaya Medical Centre who could afford to buy the big Krells and Sonus Fabers and Nagra's.

Whilst, Adrian is not openly rude, you always get the feeling that that he has no interest in cultivating your hobby as a beginner and has no interest in the cheap entry level stuff ; I suppose little realising that perhaps one day, the beginner might have more disposable income to spend on the High Ticket items.

I stayed away from Hifi dealers largely because of this attitude.


To respond to the earlier posts, do however consider a better preamp and a cheaper power amp. I enjoyed for many years the sound of and Audio Research SP9 mk3 coupled with an Audiolab 8000P before going on to better stuff.

It is my opinion that the preamp is more important that the power amp. Once the signal is lost at the preamp stage, you will never get it back no matter how good the power amp.

Therefore, if it were up to me, I would not consider the use of the 8000A or 8000S preamp section; but to get a proper preamp.





















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Post by khlim_77 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:41 pm

Hi all audiolab fan
just by pass and hv some question in my mind , many of us are using 8000A as a pre amp to pair with the power amp , will the sound better if using 8000Q + 8000P compare to 8000A + 8000P
anyway i just sold alway my speaker so the important now is looking on the speaker 1st
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Post by cmboy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:02 pm

AFAIK, the 8000Q is an excellent and well designed pre-amp in the series, far exceeding the cheaper 8000C. 8000Q hard to come by I think. One thing about many used Audiolabs..hard to find absolute mint ones. Most are with couple of knocks, scratches, dents or corroded jacks. Then again, what the heck..what matters is the sound and purpose.
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Post by samn on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:24 pm

8000Q+8000P is far better. But if you are on the budget, 8000A+8000P is more than sufficient. You could use the extra saving for your new speakers.

cmboy, I agreed with you 8000Q is hard to come by. Anybody selling it? Very Happy
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Post by cmboy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:59 pm

Hmmm... If it were my preference, I'd take the Audiolab power amp out of the equation and put some sweet valve amps of at least 30W or better.
My 2 sen.


Last edited by cmboy on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:01 am

mllum88 wrote:"Have you personally experienced some of Adrian's "snobbiness" first hand ?"

In response to this posting; I would have to say yes. Many years ago, when I first started spending money on Hifi, I used to frequent Adrian's place as he was one of the few dealers who actually carried a lot of the stuff you could only read about in stereophile (this was at a time when stereophile and absolute sound was the size of a paperback like reader's digest).

Although I spent money there and bought a dac, a power amp, and a pre amp from him (mid fi stuff), I always felt that he had no time for people just starting out in Hifi.

Then, his predisposition was towards the big senders like the doctors from Subang Jaya Medical Centre who could afford to buy the big Krells and Sonus Fabers and Nagra's.

Whilst, Adrian is not openly rude, you always get the feeling that that he has no interest in cultivating your hobby as a beginner and has no interest in the cheap entry level stuff ; I suppose little realising that perhaps one day, the beginner might have more disposable income to spend on the High Ticket items.

I stayed away from Hifi dealers largely because of this attitude.


So sorry to hear this. But that being said .. there are many a forummer here would have bought s/hand stuff from Adrian and for a bargain as well. I shall leave it up for them to illustrate or keep mum. Either way is fine.

But as for my standpoint, I cannot agree with your stand in saying that Adrian is only interested in pushing Nagras to "rich SJMC doctors" (yes, i know who you're referring to as well) as his only clientele types. You obviously have not seen a complete enough picture of the situation and are drawing this opinion based to what i would feel is an entirely narrow perspective and limited interaction only.

Do not forget how Audio Image started with bread and butter products like Audiolab, Rogers and other realworld affordable brands. If only you'd know better, he still has a selection of affordable mid-fi brands with superb value for money and best-in-class offerings, some of which lately have been featured/reviewed in local newspapers.

How many hifi dealers would break the typical retail-business relationship and go to much more personal levels like vacationing with their customers and families , and as part of social functions outside of the hifi world ?
Its all about how well and how people can build on such relationships. Both dealer and customer alike.

Perhaps some other forummers can also share their views on this. I shall not name any specifics here for privacy reasons.

Just IMO, as i have no personal interest whatsoever in seeing Adrian/Audio Image getting painted a bad picture, nor do I feel any need to defend AudioImage or how Adrian conducts his business to the end. But just to illustrate that such gut-feeling of one person's snobbiness or negativity does not apply across board.
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Post by WongKN on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:38 pm

Mugenfoo made several very good points.

I just wish to touch a little bit on a couple of things that often crops up when talking about hifi or av dealers. One is the perception that when we go in as a new customer, or as a not so regular customer, that the shops will pay more attention to their regulars. The second is even as regulars, shops will service more those who spend more money there.

Firstly, IMHO, it is logical and to be expected that any smart business will give more priority and attention to their regular customers. It do mean that when we are new there, we may not get the best possible service. But if one thinks carefully about it, it makes the most business sense. As long as they give good service, I feel it would be enough. And after all, every business needs to make profit in order to survive. So before making a harsh judgement on hifi and av shops who do such a thing, consider that this happens everywhere. Look everywhere. You get membership cards from Jusco, Isetan, MPH, Parkson, Giant, Carrefour, etc. They reward you with points when you spend so you become regular customer there. You pump petrol at ESSO, or SHELL, or PETRONAS, and they have their SMILES card, or BONUSLINK, and so forth and you earn points the more you buy from them. So you can exchange the points. It is reward for being a regular customer. There are loyalty programs everywhere. And if you think about it on a personal level. Should you have some spare cash and you buy someone a nice dinner. Who would you buy for ? Firstly family. Then relatives. Then close friends. Surely you will not ignore those in favour for that acquaintance you just met at the mamak store ?

Secondly, even as regular customers, sometimes we see some hifi shop seemingly favouring certain customers over others. Somehow we always seem to work out that the favoured customers are the 'big spenders'. Actually it doesn't always works out that way. But usually it seems to. Anyway, we must be fair and consider some aspects of it. A high-end equipment can and is often very sensitive to set-up and needs a lot more work than a more down to earth equipment, in order to sound at its best. Furthermore we often have a lot higher standard and expectation from a high-end (read expensive) equipment than from a cheaper one. Anyone here who has followed Joe Ling's unfortunate saga with his ARC Ref210s will understand what I mean. So it is often true, that the high-end customers needs more 'service' from the dealer.
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Post by mllum88 on Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:40 pm

In response to the last 2 posts. I would state that yes, I accept that what you have said has merit and that Hifi dealers are not running a charity.

However, ask any hifi nut /kaki if you will, who has lived in England or even gone to a Hifi shop in England for his experience and you will hear a different story as to how in general Hi fi dealers in England treat their customers.

Consider rega turntables for example. In England, when I was a student they used to retail for a couple of hundred pounds, yet no dealer I went to, sometimes without prior appointment, ever refused a demo; and further took the trouble to change setups to demonstrate differences in sound quality between a Rega, a Roksan Xerxes, or a Linn LP12. It did not matter to them that you did not have the funds to buy the expensive stuff; they still demoed it to you even when you told them your budget extended to a Rega.

That was how I was introduced to good Hifi. I simply went to dealers, spent time listening to the systems and equipment on offer and eventually got bitten by the bug.

I remember when I bought my 1st Rega Planar 3. I wasted 3 hours of Roger Macer's time at the Sound Organisation London, was ready to buy but was told that he didnt have a new unit in stock. Instead, he rang up several dealers to find out who had stock and sent me to his competitor to buy the planar3. I eventually bought it from Grahams Hi-Fi; who then proceeded to spend more time with me, demoing the Planar 3 against the then Dunlop Systemdek, Manticore Mantra and Linn LP12; just to make sure that the Rega Planar 3 was what I wanted and I was satisfied with the purchase.

This is service I have never experienced in Malaysia. Mind you, to the Brits, 300 pounds is like RM300 to us; and yet they are prepared to extend the courtesy of no obligation demos.

If you think that things have changed, let me tell you that a few years back when in London for work, I popped into Walrus Systems just behind the Marble Arch area where Marks and Spencer (I believe) currently are (They advertise extensively in the British Hifi Mags like Hifi +).

Again exemplary service. I wasnt really intending to buy anything but ended up buying the EAR 834 Phono.

The guy who runs the shop incidentally, Les Wong, was formerly from Ipoh and is an architect by training (if I am not mistaken).

If you look at their advertisements, Walrus sells all sorts of stuff from the budget to the very expensive and they are in an area of central London (the diplomatic belt) where the rates and rentals are very expensive. Yet they are able to remain in business, simply because they genuinely want to serve their customers needs. Walrus's clientele is not limited to men and I noticed a significant number of ladies shopping for hifi from them as well during my time there.

The 2 examples I quoted are not isolated cases. This same service standards applies even to small High Street dealers.

I believe it is because, the people who sell Hifi in the UK are firstly enthusiasts themselves and not just businessmen.


I must be honest that I havent experienced dealers in the USA but the dealers that I have visited in Vancouver Canada, in Vienna Austria and Munich, Germany have been just as helpful.

Dealers in Hong Kong are just plain rude. If you have no intention of buying anything, dont even ask the price. You are expected once you ask the price to buy the item.

The point of this short missive is that; it is possible to run a business and still be friendly to the customers regardless of their standing in life. This is not meant to run down our dealers or to offend them.

I have no axe to grind and I respect the other forum members to have their own opinions which may well differ from mine. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.


Thanks

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Post by WongKN on Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:48 pm

Strangely -some- (not all) my experiences with British (London), U.S., and HK hifi dealers are complete opposite of yours. But again I am careful that sometimes it might be simply bad luck on my part.

In one case, I called up a hifi dealer in London and asked where I can find blu-tack (now that's a cheap accessory if ever there was 1) 'approved' for hifi use and they say they sell it. I asked them where they are so I can go over and get some. Didn't even ask for demo or anything. Just I want to drop by for a moment and grab some. And they said "No, everyone's rushing off somewhere now. You have to come another day". I suppose that is 'service' for us eh ?

I have 1 instance with a HK dealer whom let me listen to his top of the range system. I told him I was a tourist from Malaysia and wanted to buy a Monster cable and that I could get it for HK2k. He said "unfortunately I cannot give it to you at that price", in typical hongkie style but still courteously. But he invited me to sit down and listen anyway. And gave me lots of catalog of his top of the range amplifier. He also asked me what I was using and I said "quite high-end" (meaning, Malaysia style of "OK-la, though not really high-end") which he mistook to meant I think I have a high-end amp. It was an Exposure pre-power, the old very heavy model. We talked in english and I didn't let on that I understand cantonese. He 'serviced' me with respect. When his partner came in, he told his partner in catonese "he's from Malaysia, not buying anything. But I let him listen anyway. He says he has a high-end amp but in reality it's a low-end Exposure pre-power. But I didn't want to hurt his feelings so I just played along with him".

I have one case in a hifi dealer in the U.S. (Washington state) where I walked in and the assistant greeted me and invited me to listen to their top of the range MacIntosh system (everything Mac). Then what seems to be the owner came in. Saw me, called the assistant out to a corner. I could see him shouting at the assitant, gesturing at the room I was sitting. Next thing, the assistant came in and simply said "Sorry, I need to get this". He stopped the CDP, took out the CD and walked off without a word. Both of them left me sitting there in the silence. Like a fool. After a short while I got the message. Got up, walked around the store a bit. NONE of them bothered to look at me. I really got the message this time and walked out.

In Sydney Australia, I was walking along this street with lots of used LP stores. I visited a few. Then saw one across the street. As I approached it, this grumpy looking fellow came out, stopped me, placed both palms out and closed them, a gesture indicating they are closed. But there are several people inside. I took the message and walked off. When I returned back around 20 minutes later, the shop was still open and I saw people ENTERING the shop. So the way I interpret it is that people of my 'kind', i.e. ASIANS, are not welcomed to that shop.

Look, there are ALL KINDS of people and dealers in this world. I suppose I could be the unlucky fellow with a look people think I can't afford anything. But I also encountered very nice and very rude dealers in all those places as well. In HK where people assumed rudeness it the rule, I had good experience with a few shops, including 1 shop where I simply walked in and sat down to listen. To a set of Mark Levinson pre-power. When another customer walked in, the owner, a lady apologised in cantonese for him having to tolerate a 'low-end' amp like Mark Levinson and the once 'he' (meaning me) finishes the session, she will replace it with the Cello that that customer owns.

Nice dealers in London. Seen them. U.S. seen then. Rude ones, Seen them. Even insulted by a few too. Germany, Stockholm, everywhere No need to make the post longer by telling stories of all of them. Life is like that unfortunately. I am sorry your experience at Audio Image and from the rest of your post, it seems most of our local hifi dealers as well, has not been good. I would hope that you can give our local hifi and av dealers another chance and visit some of them again. If you really don't like Audio Image, at least try some of the other dealers given good feedback from other members here.
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Post by mllum88 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:36 pm

I think you misunderstand the whole point of my short missive. I am not expressing any view that I dislike Audio Image. Please get that clear.
To the contrary, I think Adrian Wong is knowledgeable, competent and professional in what he does. If he were not knowledgeable, competent and professional, he would not have survived in this business for this past 20 + years (I believe I first visited Audio Image at their old premises some 22 years ago).

What I am expressing is merely the fact that Malaysian dealers in general seem disinclined to cultivate the interest of beginners to the hobby. It is not enough these days to wax lyrical on the merits only of the equipment sold by the dealer; especially when there is a free flow of information on the net, in magazines, forums etc.

In so far as I am concerned, I am past the stage where I change equipment regularly as I no longer suffer from audiophilia nervosa. Much of the new equipment on offer merely are variations on the theme. The sound presentation whilst different, is not necessarily better.

The question is, does the last ounce of detail of a shimmering cymbal struck by brushes or the rasp of a cello by the hard bowing of the player, float your boat? It no longer does for me. I would rather spend money attending MPO concerts. If you attend such concerts regularly, you will find that many concepts we so cherish in Hifi such as pin point imaging does not really exist in live unamplified music.


I am happy with my present setup and would rather just enjoy the music; although I am at a point at my career and finances to have significant disposal income to afford relatively High End equipment. So I dont really need to visit hi fi dealers as frequently as I used to.


Thanks

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Post by junchoon on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:51 pm

how about this?

http://www.audiolab.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?lang=En&Tab2=8200MB

Audiolab - discussion thread - Page 2 8200MB01
Audiolab - discussion thread - Page 2 8200MB04

seems like a good amp. who is the current dealer for Audiolab products in Malaysia?

cheers,
wps


Last edited by junchoon on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:53 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : pictures)

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Post by terencebee on Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:34 pm

Anyone looking for Quad 606 mk1 can pm me.. tq
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Post by samn on Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:58 pm

That new Audiolab 8200MB monoblock simply shouts "Small Means Big"...phew...I really wish I could have a chance to listen to those. Been wondering, is there Audiolab dealers in Malaysia?
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Post by Apole on Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:03 am

samn wrote:That new Audiolab 8200MB monoblock simply shouts "Small Means Big"...phew...I really wish I could have a chance to listen to those. Been wondering, is there Audiolab dealers in Malaysia?

samn....
sure da price oso big big.. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Post by samn on Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Any idea what the 8200mb prices like?

With mugenfoo help (thanks again), I've got myself one pair used 8000M in mint condition from Adrian, Audio Image. I had a pleasant and straight forward business dealing with him. Now, someone gave me poison the other day to find another pair 8000M to do biamping saying the soundstage will open up even further with more sparkling and tighter bass. So, I'm wondering if anyone has any experiences with 8000m in biamping mode. Care to share. Appreciated. Thanks.
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Post by cmboy on Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:56 pm

I think bi amping with a suitable tube amp together with the Audiolab could offer musicality untold.. could it?
But if you insist on having full Audiolab system all round, I won't stop you. My 2 sen.
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Post by WongKN on Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:58 pm

Samn, more poison. What speakers are you using ? If it is not that tough to drive, maybe consider biamping with a tube-hybrid amp, like that Counterpoint SA-12 currently on sale in the for-sale section.... Very Happy
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Post by samn on Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:56 pm

I'm currently using mission m66i, can drive max 150w. I'm considering to upgrade the loudspeakers once I sorted out the amp.

I have no knowledge on Counterpoint but I've read a bit on SA12 running hybrid tube/solid state at 100w. Now, 8000m is solid state 125w, how best should I biamp them as a whole system. Would the sound be out of proportion? What about gain factor? Audiolab is 26db while Counterpoint is 30db. Appreciate the advise. Thanks.

Found a review http://hometheaterreview.com/counterpoint-sa-12-power-amp-reviewed-/
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Post by WongKN on Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:52 pm

Samn,

You asked a good question and after thinking about for a few days, I do not know a sure answer. For my own case, I use an ARC CL60 and Luxman power amp to bi-amp. But the Luxman is an unusual power amp as it has two volume knobs to control the amp. And I realised those knobs are not at their max volume position. So your concern about matching is very well said. It would be more about sensitivity and other parameters though, not so much about power directly. I suppose your safest is to stick to another Audiolab, another pair of 8000M if possible.
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Post by mugenfoo on Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:32 am

putting alot of Audiolab amps together is akin to a lego building block system already.
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Post by flyfly on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:53 pm

The best partner under this category, goes to this Black Audiolab 8000P
-immediate partner. However the best cable to go with this system ,is a pair of pure silver interconnect.Do take note of this. clown
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Post by samn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:52 pm

flyfly wrote:However the best cable to go with this system ,is a pair of pure silver interconnect.Do take note of this. clown

Pure silver interconnect, this is certainly an eye opening. Care to elaborate more. My whole connection is on copper and i believe the wires used in the amps are also made of coppers. How pure silver make the differences? Very interesting. Appreciate your feedback. Thank you. Very Happy
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Post by samn on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:48 pm

As I've found the suitable amp for my 8000S already. I guess I should change the title so that those with or are looking for Audiolab systems may refer here for ideas, discussion, pointers, etc. Very Happy
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Post by mugenfoo on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:59 pm

samn wrote:
flyfly wrote:However the best cable to go with this system ,is a pair of pure silver interconnect.Do take note of this. clown

Pure silver interconnect, this is certainly an eye opening. Care to elaborate more. My whole connection is on copper and i believe the wires used in the amps are also made of coppers. How pure silver make the differences? Very interesting. Appreciate your feedback. Thank you. Very Happy

Silver interconnects merely adds a certain flavour to the sound. It is neither superior electrically nor preferred than any other well manufactured cable.

But some companies like to play on the "precious metal" idea to promote and champion silver cabling as being super high-end etc etc. These are all just marketing puffery to catch the unwary consumer.

There is much more to cable design than just the type of materials used.
Just to name a few:
- material purity , molecular structure
- stranding, litz, or solid core
- cable geometry
- dielectric insulation type
- termination types.
- resistance to oxidation,
- .... etc etc etc

So unless someone can answer ALL the above variables and then some , then only could it be taken to be authoritative to state that "this XYZ cable is the best for this application or vice versa".

Personally, I have never been impressed with silver cables in audio connections especially a certain high-end brand that uses the word "Silver" in its own namesake. Sounds slow, muddied and ill-defined at times.

Besides, a truly good cable should not impart any sound of its own, but instead be as transparent as possible. The link between Audiolab's pre and power sections are superbly matched for each other already, so no need for any exotic cabling in between. But if you feel that your wallet is biting on your behind, and asking to be lightened, you can try some KimberKable, as they also use alot of silver in their cables. i think @htkaki is an authorised Kimber dealer so u can contact him on this forum to ask him for advice. Be ware of other people selling Kimber and this is one of the more popular brands to have alot of fakes running around.
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Post by adrian4454 on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:42 am

Silver is starting to sound very ordinary nowadays. So the new hype is "deep freeze", cryogenic treatment. After the best material is used to push the resistance down; this process will be used to lower the resistance further. Not only that, it make the material structure more compact for more unified transmission.. current flow to be less likely to hit crystral block..?? Man, I am no good in tackling the super tech description.

Even some websites in US are offering services to deep freeze your hifi components... yes, that include your amp, if you want. It doesnt guarantee some of your products will survive this treatment., though. Smile

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Post by samn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:15 pm

Honestly, I was quite sceptical about Silver wires despite how many N's they might have on the cables nowadays. I have an old silver interconnect 2N's (to be exact 99% silver) from VDHull and I agreed with mugenfoo to point out "Sounds slow, muddied and ill-defined at times." But that is a 20yrs old cable, I sought clarifications just in case if current silver cables with the latest technology and know how are very much different or perhaps better than the old ones.

mugenfoo, I didn't realise KimberKable has silver wires in it. I'm seriously considering to buy the speakers cables, mains and interconnects from KimberKable at one go but waiting for funds to come to my lap very soon hopefully. Smile . Would appreciate your views on KimberKable with Audiolab amps? Thanks.
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Post by adrian4454 on Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:11 pm

Hi samn,
Before you get into this cable hunt.. I suggest u trackle the couple and decouple things on your speaker and equipment.
Like those cone, chopping board, squash ball half cut, blu tack, and so on.

IMO, it is good to make the speaker completely coupled. which mean the vibration can only transmit to ground.. from there you can evaluate better on the cable sound characteristic.

IMO too, thin strand of the same AWG for speaker cable will often improve micro details retrieval and introduce some natural warmth.
Thicker or harder strand of the same AWG will often induce speed and dynamic.

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Post by samn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:07 pm

adrian4454 wrote:IMO too, thin strand of the same AWG for speaker cable will often improve micro details retrieval and introduce some natural warmth.
Thicker or harder strand of the same AWG will often induce speed and dynamic.

Referring to AWG, actually when I hunt for cables, I always look for AWG first because the thickness of cables do produced its own characteristics. This has proven scientifivally. I've had Cable cable Talk 18AWG, later on Wireworld 12AWG. Both of them produced opposite sounds to each other. End up I went back to cable talk for speed and dynamic as you correctly said. I'm looking KimberKable 16AWG. I was hoping 16AWG will give me a bit of warmth in between.

I totally agree with you on the cheap tweaking which has been my favourite things to do. I used to stack bricks under the loudspeakers to prevent it from moving with the reproduced sound but wife hate their looks Very Happy. Instead of chopping board, I stacked 1/2 inches graphite tiles underneath each speakers on spikes and all my audio components. the sound is beautiful but I have all cheap cables, so I was hoping with better cables, the sound will open up further like when I added 8000M.

On the squash balls, done it before but I found no improvement. Just for sharing, I used to put blu tack surrounding my TDL's tweeters, it reduced sibilance significantly and produced sweeter sound. You may want to try but please don't blame me if anything goes wrong ya...Very Happy. I haven't tried on the Mission yet because it's still under warranty, perhaps after warranty I would do it. Very Happy
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Post by WongKN on Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:27 pm

There is a new DIY forum section opened now, thanks to the admin. So if you guys want to discuss home-made mods like these, do feel free to start a thread there. Let's get the DIY forum alive and working !
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Post by adrian4454 on Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:45 pm

Hi samn,
Thanks for sharing.. I thought I was the only cheapskate who toy around with kitchen tool tweak. Smile
Anyway, brick on top of speaker, IMO isnt the right way forward for most speakers.. at least not for our wooden cabinet type. Often the design of the speaker and it final tweaking by the manufacturer has considered the vibration/resonance the cabinet can generate or sing along.. so eliminate it will often bring ill sound effect... Yes, I did tried something like this before.. it sounded very death.

Hi WongKN,
I do have some funny DIY things, that I dont think it is ok to share, because; if it is not done correctly, it will burn down the house or result death.. And yes, I've been playing with Live current lately.

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Post by mugenfoo on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:00 pm

samn wrote:Honestly, I was quite sceptical about Silver wires despite how many N's they might have on the cables nowadays. I have an old silver interconnect 2N's (to be exact 99% silver) from VDHull and I agreed with mugenfoo to point out "Sounds slow, muddied and ill-defined at times." But that is a 20yrs old cable, I sought clarifications just in case if current silver cables with the latest technology and know how are very much different or perhaps better than the old ones.

mugenfoo, I didn't realise KimberKable has silver wires in it. I'm seriously considering to buy the speakers cables, mains and interconnects from KimberKable at one go but waiting for funds to come to my lap very soon hopefully. Smile . Would appreciate your views on KimberKable with Audiolab amps? Thanks.

Kimbers are one of the few companies what don't sell bullsh!t. Although they use silver as part of their design specs, Kimber is most famous for their patented method of cross-braiding and twisting the wires which gives certain performance gains.

Without sounding too much like a Kimber salesman, now is the time you should seek out the Kimber sales reps to get the rest of the pitch. I shall just only share the history of what made them famous in the 1st place.


As for equipment partnering, there are just too much variables to generalise.
A certain cable may sound bright and detailed in one setup, but slow and warm in another. Best if u can borrow a pair from a friend to try out and see if u like it or not.

Or maybe if some dealers have loan / demo pairs, u can ask to pinjam and try out. Usually if you are willing to pay a decent deposit, they are happy to oblidge and loan you a pair to test out. They will hope that u keep the cable and turn your deposit into a sale as well.
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Post by samn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:37 pm

I read about twisting and cross-braiding the wires, the main purpose of such method is to reduce/eliminate RF and/or EMI...something like that, hence very intrigue to try out one soon but unfortunately from where I came, I haven't come across any dealers/sellers carrying kimber products, instead they keep pushing me some unknown brands like inakustic, black rhodium, etc but I did find QED though in Penang. Not bad at all. Thanks for the tips...really appreciate.
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Post by samn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:42 pm

adrian4454 wrote:Hi samn,
Thanks for sharing.. I thought I was the only cheapskate who toy around with kitchen tool tweak. Smile
Anyway, brick on top of speaker, IMO isnt the right way forward for most speakers.. at least not for our wooden cabinet type.

I think you misread, I wrote "under" the loudspeakers not on top...no worries, you are forgiven...lol Very Happy
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Post by car o scope on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:10 pm

samn wrote:I read about twisting and cross-braiding the wires, the main purpose of such method is to reduce/eliminate RF and/or EMI...something like that, hence very intrigue to try out one soon but unfortunately from where I came, I haven't come across any dealers/sellers carrying kimber products, instead they keep pushing me some unknown brands like inakustic, black rhodium, etc but I did find QED though in Penang. Not bad at all. Thanks for the tips...really appreciate.
Which Kimber model is in your list? Very Happy
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Post by mugenfoo on Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:23 am

samn wrote:I read about twisting and cross-braiding the wires, the main purpose of such method is to reduce/eliminate RF and/or EMI...something like that, hence very intrigue to try out one soon but unfortunately from where I came, I haven't come across any dealers/sellers carrying kimber products, instead they keep pushing me some unknown brands like inakustic, black rhodium, etc but I did find QED though in Penang. Not bad at all. Thanks for the tips...really appreciate.

The twist is not only for EMI/RF rejection, but also it changes the cable's L-C-R values.

Kimber is carried by Hiway laser in SS2, PJ , and also by Maxx-AV in Seremban.

I won't trust any other sources for KimberKable as there are just too many fakes flying around in the market. Especially those who sell via hifi forums and ebay, etc etc.

Caveat Emptor.
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Source(s): Technics Compact-Cassette Deck
Amplification: DIY Kit 15Watt
Speakers: Pasar Road Special.

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