Power Conditioners

Accuphase Clean Power Supply PS-1210

Very powerful bass depth and weight; good dynamics, body and timbre; sweet vocal; refined treble; slightly warm and slightly emphasis on mid; extended low; moderate soundstage...
It can measure the incoming ac distortion by %. My area was measured at a terribly 4-5% ac distortion level.

how much the price?.

USD11500.00 from The Cable Co!

tycham wrote:USD11500.00 form The Cable Co!

more expensive than some high-end amps.

soonhas, is it worth the money ? what is your current amps and setup ?

I am not questioning your decision but Just wondering, could better sound be acquired by investing on better amps, source and speakers ?

Hi Carz,
Look behind the Accuphase picture... it look like another power conditioner from Isotek..
Imagine u already have a Rm200k system.. the final frontier would very much lie on this conditioners. It is logically to go for this extra length then.
This gigantic has very little restriction when ur equipment suddenlty demands the power... basically there isnt no hamper on the dynamics...

I can only afford this @RM35 Cash & Carry!

Worth the money depends on the matching of one's system and one's incoming ac quality.

Power Conditioner... There is no cheap power conditioner under the sun that is good, I would say that if you cannot afford it, it is best you do without it. Please don't opted for cheap one as it can cause more damage than good.

Power Conditioner of any price require careful balancing of power tappings of your entire system.

When you look into power conditioner, you cannot ignore good grounding.

Inevitably, you ought to also look at having a good power supply to your power conditioner.

Lastly, is your system set-up well enough to rip the benefits of power conditioner? It includes speaker/room relationship, equipment/speaker synergy, equipment/conductance matching, etc....

JoKi,

Can you elaborate on equipment/conductance matching ??

I did check quite some naked pictures of these so called power supply filter or conditioning things..

It seem there are 2 schools of thought here. Those that run on massive transformer to stabilize the voltage(like 253 or whatever to 230v, and make sure 50Hz operation), and those that run on chips(Like Reimyo). But I cant be sure..

And there is those that run on filtering and not so on voltage stabilizing...

Also, the so called balanced power supply version that doesnt bleed EMI to ground...

Dont know which one is better though~

Hi Carz,

Equipment & conductance matching can comes in the form of interdependent enhancement between them like that of a darker sounding equipment tends to be more suited to conductance that has slightly lifted hf, or vice versa.

It can also comes in the form of resistant in impedance, capacitant mode which eventhough cable in a short run would not be detrimental so to speak, but it does determine the sort of resistive mode in relationship to frequency range in signal. This is particularly important when it is unbalance that, unlike balance cable which engineer could device some kind of common-mode noise rejection. So in such case, whether equipment is using balance long cable or unbalance short cable has effects on the sounding of the equipment. So correct using of conductance becomes necessary.

On the more scary part, not a single equipment under the sun are neutral sounding in "absolute" terms, because all equipment within a chain created a system which intermodulates the sound signal. Conductance that connect them up forming conduits of signal path constantly affecting and re-affecting the signal again and again before reaching the speakers. Combining the loading of speakers into the entire chain of a system that drives it, it is a myriads of electrical mess especially when sound signal are continuously changing & none linear, and not mono-tone.

I am not an electrical engineer, so I could only reproduce what I have learned and experienced. If you run a check on the web, you could problably find more insightful explanation of this.

Although I do not recommend one should use conductance to 'tune' your system because it can burnt a big hole in your wallet, if you are capable electrician/diyer, you could customise your conductance and achieve fantastic result when you know what to do with the conductance.

JoKi

Hi Jo,
This is very profound.. cant seem to comprehend any.. sorry for being dumb.
Do you mean we need to measure the conductance of the equipment? and the matching one would be the AC power or the other signal cabling?

Sorry, I dont really know this one. Appreciate you can explain. Thanks.

jokiarch wrote:Power Conditioner... There is no cheap power conditioner under the sun that is good, I would say that if you cannot afford it, it is best you do without it. Please don't opted for cheap one as it can cause more damage than good.

Hi Joki,
I'm intrigued by your above statements. Could you please comment on these main conditioners which happened to be cheap but received good reviews. Is it just a hype or they are worth to have for in budget systems. Thanks.

http://www.whathifi.com/review/lindy-6-way
http://www.whathifi.com/review/tacima-cs929

If everyone has perfect incoming ac quality, Power Conditioner would never exist in the market.
With better ac, the true or actual performance and potential of equipments can only be revealed.
Ac is like fuel for cars. For those who already have good incoming ac, congratulations, as you can just ignore any ac conditioners and concentrate on speakers placement, room acoustic treatment, equipments synergy, equipments isolations and placements, tweaking and tuning for the best sound from your equipments.
For those who have poor incoming ac, keep on changing equipments hoping for better sound will result in many holes in your wallet.

adrian4454 wrote:Hi Jo,
This is very profound.. cant seem to comprehend any.. sorry for being dumb.
Do you mean we need to measure the conductance of the equipment? and the matching one would be the AC power or the other signal cabling?

Sorry, I dont really know this one. Appreciate you can explain. Thanks.

No, you don't measure the conductance of the equipment. I did not say, neither have I expressed or implied this.

I like to respect engineer's work, so I would accept equipment is a "completed engineered piece" (you have to fixed something as constant before the rest variables can make sense); and explore the world of conductance, and hope to find one that works well with it. Otherwise, we are getting no where if I allow my equipment to be moded to suit conductance's voicing, which again the conductance is allowed to be changed. I would end up like a dog chasing after my own tail going round and round.

Read my reply again. You know what I was saying. The main reason of my former statement is simply saying that one cannot assume power conditioner is the solution to address all audio problems due to power supply.

JoKi

samn wrote:

jokiarch wrote:Power Conditioner... There is no cheap power conditioner under the sun that is good, I would say that if you cannot afford it, it is best you do without it. Please don't opted for cheap one as it can cause more damage than good.

Hi Joki,
I'm intrigued by your above statements. Could you please comment on these main conditioners which happened to be cheap but received good reviews. Is it just a hype or they are worth to have for in budget systems. Thanks.

http://www.whathifi.com/review/lindy-6-way
http://www.whathifi.com/review/tacima-cs929

Hi Samn,

I have not tried these products mentioned by you, so I cannot confirm if this is all hype or a true gem in their own right. If they are as good as clams, I will correct my statement and re-phrase due to newly acquired information I learned as a result of your pointer.

However, I can't help by admitting that I am rather suspicious this is a "power conditioner" as said by WHAT HIFI. Looks more like a power strip with filters perhaps. But I cannot verify if this is the case but certainly they are very different from what I know "power conditioner" to look like. AND at such civilised pricing!! If it works as well as it claims, it ought to be promoted and save us a lot of money.

UKP40 for a piece of power conditiner anyone? I thought I hear wrong. Let's hope I am wrong for the benefits of all.

JoKi

Jo,
I assume the conductance you mentioned are interconnects and power cables right ?

Sorry Joki, still cant get it.., maybe it will take me more reading to get this. Thanks a lot for sharing..

Would it be correct then if I say:
I guess it is demand of voltage and resistance of supply between Equipment and power supply. I also guess it mean the power conditioner should produce no resistance or mininum to the equipment it supply when music playing. So it would burn a hole in pocket, because such power conditioner, traditionally require very bulking transformer to have have the VA in abundance.

Hi Samn,
I have the Tacima... it is a power filter. Simple and partially effective, if you know what power conditioner is doing; you will find the Tacima lacking a lot. The Tacima is just a basic EMI suppressor unit. It is cost effective for what it intended. But it hold no candle against the real McCoy.
Power Conditioner in my own term meaning it stabilize Voltage, it filter EMI/RF, in band noise, frequency, and minimum power resistance.

adrian4454 wrote:Sorry Joki, still cant get it.., maybe it will take me more reading to get this. Thanks a lot for sharing..

Would it be correct then if I say:
I guess it is demand of voltage and resistance of supply between Equipment and power supply. I also guess it mean the power conditioner should produce no resistance or mininum to the equipment it supply when music playing. So it would burn a hole in pocket, because such power conditioner, traditionally require very bulking transformer to have have the VA in abundance.

Hi Samn,
I have the Tacima... it is a power filter. Simple and partially effective, if you know what power conditioner is doing; you will find the Tacima lacking a lot. The Tacima is just a basic EMI suppressor unit. It is cost effective for what it intended. But it hold no candle against the real McCoy.
Power Conditioner in my own term meaning it stabilize Voltage, it filter EMI/RF, in band noise, frequency, and minimum power resistance.

See what I mean? You know.

carz wrote:Jo,
I assume the conductance you mentioned are interconnects and power cables right ?

Yes.

Hi Jo,
I am just guessing.. a lot I dont know..

Isotek Mira

Effective and significant in noise floor reduction, improving imaging, soundstaging, separation, layering, bass definition, transient, control, detail etc, improving video quality and prolonging equipments life span and listening hours without fatigue.
Ideal for entry to mid system with moderate total power consumption.

Big E had done quite an informative research here on the performance of power conditioners and regenerators.

Chinese made Xindak XF-1000ES offer good product at absolute affordable price..it should not be missed if you have wish to venturing into this zone..
they carch up very fast theseday

adrian4454 wrote:
Hi Samn,
I have the Tacima... it is a power filter. Simple and partially effective, if you know what power conditioner is doing; you will find the Tacima lacking a lot. The Tacima is just a basic EMI suppressor unit. It is cost effective for what it intended. But it hold no candle against the real McCoy.
Power Conditioner in my own term meaning it stabilize Voltage, it filter EMI/RF, in band noise, frequency, and minimum power resistance.

If you mean Power Stabilizer, yeah, I've seen many of them including at my work place where they use it to stablise the voltage from mains power electrical to the computer servers and also to stabilise the electricity running from generators during black out. Is this what you mean to be used with our hifi components? Tq.

Hi Samn.. I believe those in IT industry will be seeing the UPS. Uninterrupt power supply. It basically run on battery. this too qualify in quite some international regulation, that ensure reduce EMI and other electricity gremlin.

But there are not as purposely built as the Audiophile version. And it may restrict system dynamic due to their limitation in power on demand.

Then there is this AC regulator that come cheaply with PC purchase. Dont really know they still offer this nowadays. This has some form of switching circuit inside that ensure voltage doesnt fluctuate too much. And this is something you dont use it for your hifi. Other than it limited watt/Ampere capacity, it is an evil sound device; create more noise than improve sound performance.

I think Audio application is much different from PC .Both needs are different.
Audio surely not welcome "being llimit and restricted" ,for PC only "voltage" is the main subject their product is address on,as they don care much about dynamic and switching noises.

I rarely heard audio is being damaged with increase in voltage, but PC "digital" is more prune to supply rail stability issues

adrian4454 wrote:Hi Samn.. I believe those in IT industry will be seeing the UPS. Uninterrupt power supply. It basically run on battery. this too qualify in quite some international regulation, that ensure reduce EMI and other electricity gremlin.

But there are not as purposely built as the Audiophile version. And it may restrict system dynamic due to their limitation in power on demand.

Then there is this AC regulator that come cheaply with PC purchase. Dont really know they still offer this nowadays. This has some form of switching circuit inside that ensure voltage doesnt fluctuate too much. And this is something you dont use it for your hifi. Other than it limited watt/Ampere capacity, it is an evil sound device; create more noise than improve sound performance.

Dude, what is an "AC regulator" ? What is it that's supposed to be "regulated" ?

Wait... I can sense the next one will be me being sent to the firing squad..

Suppose I mean Voltage Regulator~..?

No, no firing squad permitted. I mean as long as you don't voluntarily bend down lar !!

Yes, I do believe what you meant is voltage regulator or some calls voltage stabilizer. Do bear in mind that power requirements for I/T equipment are very very different from a hifi equipment, in fact even between types of hifi equipment (power amps vs CD players for e.g.).

phew... sigh of relief..

Dont get me wrong; I also disagree with the evil device of Voltage regulator being used in Hi fi.

Though, I plugged this on my very very first hi fi set... Didnt remember I hear any different or not, perhap the setup then just wasnt "hi fi" enough to hear the different.

Torus Power CS 16 Int'l AVR - UK

As compared to Accuphase on my sys - airier, more neutral, transparent; lower noise floor thus better 3D focusing and soundstaging; less powerful sounding ; relatively leaner or less body, depth and weight ( not an issue as they can be solved by some tweaks ). Better matched with all my ac conditoners.
Possessed.

Oh Yeah

soonthas wrote:

Torus Power CS 16 Int'l AVR - UK

As compared to Accuphase on my sys - airier, more neutral, transparent; lower noise floor thus better 3D focusing and soundstaging; less powerful sounding ; relatively leaner or less body, depth and weight ( not an issue as they can be solved by some tweaks ). Better matched with all my ac conditoners.
Possessed.

Torus is a class of its own. Its main job really is power_isolation & noise_suppression system.

I think many people(includingsome experience audiophile) are fooled but what power conditioners actually do..

The benefits derived from power conditioners are due to 3 reasons;

1.Good earthing

2.low impedence supply to equipments

3.better resonant control....

do not believe all the other mumbo jumbo..they are all marketing gimmicks..

more power conditioners couse harm than good;and many peopleuse them as tone controls...

3 classic examples...

1.Richard Gray PC are being used to add sparkle to the high....and RGPC contais MOV one of the worst killer for sound!!!!!

2.Shunyata being used to add more body to the mids......

3.Torus isolation transformers being used to add ;headroom; to poorly matched amps...

YOU MUST start with a well design dedicated circuit......good earthing proper receptacles.....try to use a passive conditioner and attach your equipments to Entreq AQ grounding pole (which is the new king IMO) or

....Tripoint Troy/Spartan.;especially if your equipments use large transformers.

Thats it....

but many people start backward......i just cant understand........Start saving for a dedicated cuircuit,not PLcsss

Sorry for being so frank,but i think a good dose of frankness will wake up the so call pseudo gurus

tin wrote:I think many people(includingsome experience audiophile) are fooled but what power conditioners actually do..

The benefits derived from power conditioners are due to 3 reasons;

1.Good earthing

2.low impedence supply to equipments

3.better resonant control....

do not believe all the other mumbo jumbo..they are all marketing gimmicks..

more power conditioners couse harm than good;and many peopleuse them as tone controls...

3 classic examples...

1.Richard Gray PC are being used to add sparkle to the high....and RGPC contais MOV one of the worst killer for sound!!!!!

2.Shunyata being used to add more body to the mids......

3.Torus isolation transformers being used to add ;headroom; to poorly matched amps...

YOU MUST start with a well design dedicated circuit......good earthing proper receptacles.....try to use a passive conditioner and attach your equipments to Entreq AQ grounding pole (which is the new king IMO) or

No.1 , So how does adding a power conditioner Improve the Grounding since its just a device that is plugged between the wall and the equipment ?

No.2 , What do you mean by "low impedance" ? Are you doing any medium matching there that is causing signal reflection at the boundary conditions?

no.3 , What resonant control is there in a power mains ? If anything, it will all resonate at the 50Hz power supply.

mugenfoo,

I can see that
you are utterly confused........!!!!

you can start by doing some research......

tin wrote:mugenfoo,

I can see that
you are utterly confused........!!!!

you can start by doing some research......

I've researched my stash of Electrical & electronic engineering textbooks already....

Looks like you're the one who's adding to the confusion here perhaps by yet other different types of marketing mumbo-jumbo. Or would you like to quote some credible references here ?

1.the common methods employed are either to float the ground ,or to have equipments star-grounded once attached.

2.low impedence result in faster flow of electricity

3.huge amount of mechanical energy,hence noise ,are introduced as electron travel between diffrent contacts,plcs help this,,,

those are some of the common methods employed..

why don't you start reading the verteq aq /entreq/quantum websites.....those are good places to start

If ac conditioners are considered as tone control, all the equipments in the hifi chain like amp, speakers, cd/lp player, pre can also be categorized as tone control because they also exhibit their own sound signature altering the overall hifi sound, right?

soonthas wrote:

Torus Power CS 16 Int'l AVR - UK

As compared to Accuphase on my sys - airier, more neutral, transparent; lower noise floor thus better 3D focusing and soundstaging; less powerful sounding ; relatively leaner or less body, depth and weight ( not an issue as they can be solved by some tweaks ). Better matched with all my ac conditoners.
Possessed.

Welcome onboard fellow Torusian! Congratulations. If opting this is a "fool", I am happy.. and a willing one.

Jo Ki

tin wrote:1.the common methods employed are either to float the ground ,or to have equipments star-grounded once attached.

2.low impedence result in faster flow of electricity

3.huge amount of mechanical energy,hence noise ,are introduced as electron travel between diffrent contacts,plcs help this,,,

those are some of the common methods employed..

why don't you start reading the verteq aq /entreq/quantum websites.....those are good places to start

1. Floating the ground in EE terms means detaching/defeating the equipment's ground points from the electrical grid's earthing frame (ie, every house's own earth point). Big electrical risk here. If you wanna do this, wish you all the good luck in the world.
Star grounding topology is more crucial in the audio signal paths. Hence , to be talking about Star topology at the AC power supply here is kinda muddling around.

2. Your explanation here doesn't make sense at least in the physics and electrical engineering field. Electricity doesn't flow faster or slower just because of impedances.

3. Wow .. this is even more befuddling...

Regarding the verteq aq /entreq/quantum websites, how sure are you that these do not contain their own marketing hype mumbo jumbo or puffery sales gimmicks ?


So lets be honest for a moment, might you be so kind as to reassure some of us there that you have some formal electrical/electronics background or some engineering background to really support your 3 explanations?

Sigh... mugen, so incisive as always. Do carry on...

This one does AVR too !

mugenfoo wrote:Torus is a class of its own. Its main job really is power_isolation & noise_suppression system.

Mugenfoo,

You obviously have no idea what i am talking about!!!in the process you make yourself sounds quite silly.....

I think you have no sincere desire about learning;you asked me about where to read,I guided you and you claim that the website might contains marketing info about themsellingtheir products...(.sigh).....you will never go far inyour hifi journey,i just hope you will not mislead others,which seems to be the case many times over

tin wrote:Mugenfoo,

You obviously have no idea what i am talking about!!!in the process you make yourself sounds quite silly.....

We'll see...

tin wrote:
I think you have no sincere desire about learning;you asked me about where to read,I guided you and you claim that the website might contains marketing info about themsellingtheir products...(.sigh)

You're right about this one... at least not from a half-baked self-delusional & self-appointed guru like you.

tin wrote:
.....you will never go far inyour hifi journey,i just hope you will not mislead others,which seems to be the case many times over

It's you who are misleading other people here. BTW, I just took this photo for you to suck on. Guaranteed 100% no marketing gimmick or sales mumbo-jumbo here.



My hifi journey may not be far ... but farther than yours for sure; That much can be said of your half-baked BS knowledge in this forums.

joeling wrote:Sigh... mugen, so incisive as always. Do carry on...

i aim to entertain, as always !

joeling wrote:This one does AVR too !

mugenfoo wrote:Torus
is a class of its own. Its main job really is power_isolation &
noise_suppression system.

When you pay RM30K for it, it damn well better do ! ... and it should come with an integrated Espresso machine as well !

mugenfoo wrote:

ROTFLMAO

Damn that is one huge pile of books you've got there mate.