Upgrade audio equipment

by car o scope Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:33 am

So, comes to this question...
If we want to upgrade speakers and amp of our setup, which one to buy first?

Amp or speakers? confused

by kkthen Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:32 am

you should choose your speaker first . after that find matching amp.

by car o scope Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:41 am

What is the % of the total system cost to be allocated for speakers?
Should they be around the same as amplifier?

Let's say the amp output power is rated at 50W @ 8ohms & 80W@ 4ohms.
Then, the speakers are 4ohms and power requirement is between 50W to 150W.

Does it mean that the amp will drive the speakers at the rated 80W?
This question might just be a dumb one but all this while I am using 8ohm speakers.

by skydna Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:11 pm

car o scope wrote:What is the % of the total system cost to be allocated for speakers?
Should they be around the same as amplifier?

Let's say the amp output power is rated at 50W @ 8ohms & 80W@ 4ohms.
Then, the speakers are 4ohms and power requirement is between 50W to 150W.

Does it mean that the amp will drive the speakers at the rated 80W?
This question might just be a dumb one but all this while I am using 8ohm speakers.

For me, I do think that speaker is double or same price as amplifier

In the case u stated, the speaker should sing loud enought but it still depends on the speaker sensitivity
80w power output does not mean the output will be 80w anytime, it is depends on the volume and impedence of speaker which always changing
The rated 80w normally is the Maximum continuous power output

by car o scope Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:33 pm

sivaguru wrote:Personally I would spend more on speakers than on the amplifier and paying the same attention on the source.
Regards,
Sivaguru

Hello Sivaguru,

Earlier, you explained that the sonic differences are not that much for an amp compared to speakers.

Any other reason apart from that?
Coz I thought a pair of speakers needs a good synergy with the amp to produce good quality tunes.

At 1st, I also dont believe that investing a lot in the CD player will make much difference.
I realised that I was wrong after auditioning a good quality CD player. lol!

by tycham Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:10 pm

Sigh! I would have to buy a new house with bigger rooms before I can think of equipments upgrade. Present room too small with very low ceiling, in fact, height cannot meet present local building regulation.

by car o scope Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:37 am

The listening room is a huge contributing factor.
I have a headache too coz my room is squarish.

by JayJay Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:40 am

Point to consider on audio equipment upgrading.

(Speaker)

Budget … $$$
Music preference – some speakers may best suits to some music genre.
Type of speakers – bookshelf (requires speaker’s stand) or floorstand, passive or active speakers, (2 way / 3 ways speakers)
Brand/Model preference
Room size – speakers arrangement and positioning

(Amplifier)

Budget … $$$
Type of Amplifier – Pre/Power or Integrated, valve/tube (Single-ended/Push Pull) or solid-state, mono or dual mono block, class A/class AB amplifier
Brand/Model preference

Happy listening.

by tycham Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:54 pm

car o scope wrote:The listening room is a huge contributing factor.
I have a headache too coz my room is squarish.

Can I have your room layout with all dimensions including ceiling height, type of construction and finishes including doors and windows size and location for my acoustic engineer to take a look?

by car o scope Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:43 pm

My room is just a normal one.
Not much of treatment been done.

I have posted the layout of my room in the other website.
I dont know how to attach .ppt file here.
So, I just paste the link here.

Room layout

by azri Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:36 pm

try upgrading amplifiers 1st, diff amps gives out diff sounds from same speakers
for instance, 50w rotel vs 50w yamaha vs 50w denon vs 50w solid state etc
after replacing the amp & listen to it, u'll notice what is lack : bass, mid or trebles
then, hunt for the suitable speakers.. imo

* looking forward to listen to fullrange speakers & still unable to find one Crying or Very sad

by car o scope Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:53 pm

Well, I guess I shall 1st upgrade the equipment which more tired-looking and worn out.

It is very difficult to upgrade a set of equipment which has a good synergy all these years. And also, it is very difficult to find new equipments that can pair up and have good synergy.

Also, I am afraid that once I started to upgrade, I cannot stop it.

by azri Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:08 pm

mind sharing with us ur system?

by car o scope Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:05 pm

azri wrote:mind sharing with us ur system?

Mine is just a normal peasant setup...

Source: Rega Apollo
Amp: Exposure XX
Speakers: Epos ES11

by azri Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:05 pm

if u feel like selling that epos
give a pm, i may be interested geek

by azri Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:06 pm

~epos booked~

hehe

by car o scope Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:20 pm

azri wrote:~epos booked~

hehe

I have a pair of B&W DM600 S3 which I hardly use.
I might want to sell them 1st as I have bonded a strong 'relationship' with the Epos ES11.. lol!

by azri Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:50 pm

its ok, im in australia rite now
wont be able to purchase until im back to boleh land
tqs for the offer anyway..

by Chewkw Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:15 pm

Hi, car o scope

Code:: Mine is just a normal peasant setup... Source: Rega Apollo Amp: Exposure XX Speakers: Epos ES11

From my point of view, at the moment, you have such a good combination system. All of them have own characteristic.

If you really want to up grade, I suggest change the exposure and keep your Epos. Give Naim Audio a try, Legend matching with Epos ES11.

Good luck Smile

by car o scope Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:52 pm

sivaguru wrote:
PS Have you extracted the best performance from your system ie. by experimenting with speaker placement etc.

I have tried numerous positioning of the speakers.
Currently, I position them in extreme toe in.
Can see the external wall of the speakers.
And near field listening.

Chewkw wrote:Hi, car o scope
Code:
Mine is just a normal peasant setup... Source: Rega Apollo Amp: Exposure XX Speakers: Epos ES11

From my point of view, at the moment, you have such a good combination system. All of them have own characteristic.

If you really want to up grade, I suggest change the exposure and keep your Epos. Give Naim Audio a try, Legend matching with Epos ES11.

Good luck

The exposure is not churning lots of output power, in my opinion.
Just could not bring out the best of the speakers.
It just struggles to get the highs out..

by azri Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:28 am

what kind of sound are u listening too?

by car o scope Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:12 am

azri wrote:what kind of sound are u listening too?

I pay close attention to vocals and instruments.
Hardly listen to classics. More on jazz.

by ires Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:32 am

Hi Guys,

Since we're on the topic of "upgrade audio equipment", pls allow me to pose a similar question i.e. tumpang this thread to ask a question on upgrade. I have the following budget system: -

1. NAD C370 amplifier
2. Audio Analogue Paganini CD player
3. Marantz cd6000OSE CD player (I bought this player 1st before the paganini)
4. Mordaunt Short 904 floorstanders
5. QED Quinex2 / MIT (forgot the models, but its the al cheapo ones i.e. about RM300+) / tranparent (forgot model the model, but also one of those cheap ones) interconnects
6. Element cables as speakers cables. Its bi-wired and braided. DIY cables bought online from the US
7. Soundstage buffer

Equipments are set-up in my living room of a typical double storey terrace house measuring about 20' x 25'.

While the sound from the above system is generally clear with vocals centered in between the speakers, I have never gotten the sought of sound that personifies the presence of the musicians or the singers like those that I have heard in hifi shops. I've listened to some systems in hifi shops and the one with Unison Research amp and Opera Operatta speakers blew me away with Harry Belafonte at Dale Carnegie Hall.

Therefore, I seek advice with respect to which equipment should I upgrade. Some had advised that I upgrade the speakers, as I was told that the floorstanding mordaunts are typically for HT used.

My purchases so far had been based on online reviews and affordability. I would love to change the speakers to perhaps some "better" ones like the Opera, avance, but dont know how much sound improvement value it'll bring to my system. To change the whole system would be an expensive affair. Marginal improvements are often difficult to realise.

So guys, could you help with some advise i.e which equipment in my HIfi chain needs replacing to achieve a remarkable improvement.

For info I like to listen to jazz with voice (stacey kent,jeena lodwick, susan wong, a bit of slow rock/country like eagles, dire straits,kenny rogers).

Thank you.

by car o scope Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:30 am

Bro ires,

Nice to meet you..
Would you allow me to suggest you to fine tune the speakers' placement 1st before you make any move on upgrading?

This is because there are lots of factors that contribute to how a system will sound like, i.e. placements, room size, treatments etc etc...

Well, if you are still not satisfied with lots of trial and error and experiments and still dont get what you desired, then only go for an audition.

by adrian4454 Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:56 am

Hi Ires, Good to hear that u have a NAD c370, which I own 1 as well. U may say this is a good amp. But it needs some tweaking to bring out the best of it. Haved u do something to the jumper at the back from Pre out to Power in? It is basically the easiest tweak.

There are balanced cables inside the amp from pre out to power amp PCB. That can make a different if u r adventurous enough to change it. The Main Power Cord is another easy one. It is connected through some plug in housing. Easily modified.

U may want to squeeze the last ounce of performance from ur system first before u think about upgrading. Do let me know if u want to find out how it is done.

by hoffmeister Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:56 pm

car o scope wrote:
azri wrote:~epos booked~

hehe

I have a pair of B&W DM600 S3 which I hardly use.
I might want to sell them 1st as I have bonded a strong 'relationship' with the Epos ES11..

Hi,

Are the B&W speakers the DM602 S3 model? If selling, PM me your best price please. Cheers.

by hoffmeister Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:49 pm

hoffmeister wrote:
car o scope wrote:
azri wrote:~epos booked~

hehe

I have a pair of B&W DM600 S3 which I hardly use.
I might want to sell them 1st as I have bonded a strong 'relationship' with the Epos ES11..

Hi,

Are the B&W speakers the DM602 S3 model? If selling, PM me your best price please. Cheers.

Ooops...they ARE the 600 S3 model (just checked). Anyway, still interested. Rgds.

by azri Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:49 pm

luckly its not dm603 s3 hehe

by car o scope Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:58 pm

Bro hoffmeister,

The S3 series is the last edition of Made in UK of the 600 model range, if not mistaken.

I hardly use them coz I have a pair of Epos ES11 already.
I still have the box and manual.

See how, then.. you may drop me a PM of your offer.

by ires Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:26 pm

Car-o-scope, thank you for the suggestion on listening position. Have tried several, toe-in at different angles (sounds like wheel alignment) and on parallel / straight basis. The toe-in improved the imaging of the main singer, dead centre, but does not "appear" right in front of me, if you get what I mean. I am aware of the limitations of tweaking the living room to get great sound i.e. staging, imaging of instruments, layering, etc... Dont have the space for a dedicated listening room.

adrian4454, didn't realise that the NAD has jumpers. Not too sure how to do it though. I'd appreciate if you could teach me how. What I've done to the NAD is to add an IEC socket (I think it is furutech) and I am using the Supra power chord. I did the IEC attachment myself & the workmanship was quite horrible, but the NAD does sing after the DIY operations.

Considering the limitations of my listening area, do you guys think that audio nirvana could be achieved through some equipment upgrade, the speakers maybe. Hifi is endless, and nirvana is rather subjective. For me I'd like to have the speakers "dissapear" as my first milestone.

by hoffmeister Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:34 pm

azri wrote:luckly its not dm603 s3 hehe

True, azri...if DM603 S3 is a 'must see and buy'...hehe

by Cremona Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:19 am

Hi All, if anyone is interested in the DM603s3 u might want to call desa home kepong branch as i saw them advertised in last fridays star paper. Dont know if its new, open box or demo set. regards....

by azri Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:43 am

whats the rrp of that unit brand new in malaysia?
i know here in australia it was $2200, around rm6k or more

sorry car o scope, a bit of diversion

by adrian4454 Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:44 am

I am not sure I've done it correctly on picture uploading, if you can find the attachment or picture. It is circled in red, that is the area where you can work magic in tweaking. find whatever wire or coxial cable u can experience with.

Do let us know what u have best on this.

by car o scope Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:56 am

azri wrote:whats the rrp of that unit brand new in malaysia?
i know here in australia it was $2200, around rm6k or more

sorry car o scope, a bit of diversion

Not considering the new 683?

by ires Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:06 am

adrian, sorry, I didn't see any pictures Sad

by azri Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:09 pm

to consider buying new floorstander was never in my mind
but if i can get it cheap here in australia & sell it off later in malaysia
that will be great.. hehe

by hoffmeister Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:34 pm

Cremona wrote:Hi All, if anyone is interested in the DM603s3 u might want to call desa home kepong branch as i saw them advertised in last fridays star paper. Dont know if its new, open box or demo set. regards....

Thanks, Cremona, for the tip. Will check it out.

by car o scope Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:45 pm

sivaguru wrote:car-o-scope
If you are thinking of upgrading your amp, please PM your asking price for the ExposureXX.
Regards,
Sivaguru

OK.. But I think you will have to wait a little longer.
Coz recently, just very recently, I have upgraded something else.
No more money to upgrade the amp. lol!

BTW, you are a fast mover.. Laughing

by car o scope Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:18 pm

sivaguru wrote:It's nice to see you enjoying your hobby.After all this should be the goal.
As patience is a virtue I shall wait with abated breath...of a potentially good bargain.
Regards,
Sivaguru
PS I am listening to my Holfi Xara, Holfi Audis both upgraded by Wisma Audio and Thiel CS 3.5 ( DIY by me ) reproducing Janet Siedel to very enjoyable levels.

I really learned a lot from my friends and also from forums like this one and LYN. So many exchange of ideas, views and tips. They just make my interests in Hi Fi grow.

Well, being just only a young lad, I might not be able to upgrade my gears in a quick manner. Money is an issue.
At the same time, I also will not rush.
Rather enjoy taking time to read reviews and opinions from the internet.
There are just so much more to learn in this hobby.

Your system is very unique. Holfis are so hard to be seen in 2nd hand market. I have not listen to one for a long long time.
May I know why you like the Exposure XX? hahahaha...

I have only been to CMY in Penang and never been to Wisma Audio or Hi Fi Choice.
Maybe I will do so in my next Penang trip.

by adrian4454 Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:04 pm

Ires.. Sorry I dont really know how to attach a photo... No time to investigate on this also. Anyway, just check on the back, there is a pre out 1 output connector that is directly connect to Main in. Impossible you will miss it.

by ires Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:35 pm

got it adrian. Will source for a preamp jumper. Any brands ro recommend?

By the way, what speakers do you have with your NAD?

by car o scope Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:53 pm

sivaguru wrote:I own a Exposure Super X and I like the sound.It has the right rythm.
It is good to learn.This is the way to go.
Regards,
Sivaguru

Exposure amplifiers are good for fast pace music like Rock.
I am curious on the Holfis.
Are they more on smooth and slow music reproduction?

by adrian4454 Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:29 am

Ires I use a Dali Royal Minuet 2 speaker. Was then looking for something powerful enough yet cheap to drive the 4ohm 86db sensitivity. Only realized later, u dont really need big watts to drive low sensitivity speaker all the time.

Dont need to buy any "special" jumper or interconnect, since u r able to make IEC plug connect, there shouldnt be any problem making urself a short cable. whatever twisted pair of cable will do the trick or u want coaxial, it is even better. It is very sensitive to cable change.

by car o scope Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:20 am

That day I had an opportunity to run a comparo between the Exp XX and Audio Analogue Primo Settanta Rev2.0 at a shop in Puchong IOI mall.
I never expected this comparo would take place as I was there to have an audition on a pair of speakers.

The Exp XX produces 35W while the Primo produces 70W.
Definitely a huge jump in terms of performance because the speakers were brought to greater heights with the Primo.
A good experience to my ears as I have never listened to AA products before.

by azri Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:41 pm

have u tried aad speakers? just asking

by car o scope Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:57 pm

azri wrote:have u tried aad speakers? just asking

Nope.

sivaguru wrote:What is the sensitivity of the speakers? Low sensitivity speakers require a beefier amp to sing.
Regards,
Sivaguru
PS Would like to add a XX to my collection

Hahahaha... the last sentence...
I got your message.. I'm afraid you will have to wait a while longer.

The bookshelf speakers are at 88db, 4ohm, power requirement = 35W - 150W.

by chua55 Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:58 pm

Yeah. True. Matching is very important. Most important your ear.

Dynaudio Focus 110 is also 4ohm 85dB with recommended min 100W amp. Interconnect can make a big difference. Try VDH CS122 MKIII, entry level.

by car o scope Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:10 pm

Actually, that day when I went to have audition, there were two things being carried out.

1. The synergy between my amp and the speakers.
2. The potential of the speakers when being pushed with a greater amplifier.

Oh ya.. I am using Cardas interconnect cable.

by chua55 Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:14 pm

Oh yeah. Definitely benefits with matching amp. Small little 15Watter Push Pull amp can be quite muscular, depends on where it is used.

Try class A solid state amp too. I am building one. Just 25 Watter, again small.

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