Vinyl lovers---please describe the reasons for your preference over CD

Mugen, Interesting illustration using device screen and monitor screen shots to explain your point. I think it's a great analogy and describes the argument well. The retina display is beyond our human visual resolving power but yet when we pixel peep, it's still perceptible as bit mapped imagery.

Adrian, Whoa! More mathematics!! Can't say I understand it all but hey, here's another point worth considering:

What we are hearing is of course never digital, but simply our analog speakers being driven by surges of voltage to elicit movement from the soundwave-producing speakers. By their physical nature, a speaker ends up creating an increasingly smoother analog "curve" from what ever source it is receiving as long as the sample rate is high enough in the case of digital. A speaker can not physically move in a "digital" fashion. So at some point, the sample rate will create enough points across the sound being created that the speaker will move across the same "anti aliased" curve as if it were being driven by an analog source. Mathematically, there is certainly a sample rate that will send the same analog current coursing through the speaker wire to drive the speakers identically to the way they would be driven by an analog source.

Well, it's not in my own words of course, i'm not that smart but I think it makes a lot of sense.

Hi Bimmerman,
Thanks for stirring this shit pot all over again...I wonder what lecturing I will get from mugen later..

hmm, the digital voltage block that looks like Lego never even has chance to escape from the end of the DAC process leh.. it is all lovely musical wave when it is RCA/XLR out from the DAC already. The voltage out from the amplifier is as wavy as the analog input it gets... Things truly get very wavy when voltage excite the magnetic bits of the speaker, it get very very colored ~~ when the diaphragm get moving... which we call music~ Yeah!

Hmm.. or is it trying to explain a point here??

Thanks guys for the mathematical illustrations

But I just want to spend money to enjoy music so what it matters to me is what I hear is what I hear and not placebo or marketing or technical superiority ego.

24 bit and dynamic range only relevant in PCM world. If that was the case 1bit DSD should have a 6db dynamic range. The pro audio world has moved on to DSD.

The future is 1 bit not multibit. Essentially, even in PCM the initial stage it is still in one bit before it is multiplied.

Now you can create your own DSD recording for free and play them on the latest Sony's SACD player.

All top recording engineers have embraced 2 times 1 bit DSD format. All of them using EMM Labs equipments.

Thanks to Korg, now it is available to the masses. Thanks to the internet, now everyone can make a DSD on the fly for free. Google, Bing, Yahoo around.

High bit rate and High Rez are more important in recording stage than in playback. Our hearing resolution is around the good old 16bit/44.1khz. Almost the same as vinyl or close to the top of the range vinyl playback.

If Hi Rez really mattered than itunes would not have gone in to vinyl audiophile music room.

Vinyl's superiority is over but still relevant to thousands of pre and early digital era recording. But would still be enjoy the status of vintage cars in the future.

Actually I disagree that vinyl is irrelevant. There's still a lot of life left in the 'old dog'. But you do need to spend money and effort on a good vinyl system of course. At the moment it's the same with digital as well.

But I am glad to see that everyone agrees with me that in the end, all that matters is the music.

Now if only I can get rid of that stupid song looping inside my head because the stupid FM94.5 seems to like playing the song, about this vain lady boasting to the whole world how beautiful she is and asking people not to 'hate her'. Somehow I don't even mind hearing a group of koreans singing, but not this song !

You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this song is about you
Dont you? Dont you?

must be in repeat many times over ~~

Ya WongKN, kind of hate it sometimes when certain part of the music got stuck in looping stage in the mind~

Carly Simon!... 1972??? from the album No Secrets.
http://www.audiofidelity.net/content/carly-simon-no-secrets (formerly DCC label)
Audio Fidelity just released a 24k gold disc remaster. Unsure if I'll buy it cos I have the original LP from the 70's. Listened to the CD (previous compilation and remaster)...its Sh** sounding!...no fun factor!
There's a background whisper at the beginning.. quite vivid on the LP, barely audible on the CD...so much for CD!..

It was reported, in 1983, Ivor Tierferbrun of Linn made a LP which on one side was an analogue recording and the other side it was a digital recording. The verdict - no winner.

Again it was reported since Ivor was so anti-digital, the Canadian challenged him to a doubleblind test. Ivor used his favourite LPs and his famous Linn LP12 against a miserable consumer NOT Pro Sony digital recorder. But there was a catch, Ivor was an audiophile and therefore he was sensitive to little electronic gadgets or extra speakers in the room that can affect the sound quality.

The Canadian indulged him and let him take the test including testing his audiophile’s physic ability in detecting the extra speaker and a digital clock. And just like all other audiophiles, he managed to pick out his Sondek correctly as accurate as the chance of flipping a coin. Actually, it was worse than that.

What was the going bit rate in 1984? 20 or 24bit or is it still in the 16?

KN, sorry to tell but the old dog died a long ago. Now we are worshiping the mummified dog.


http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

musicmusic wrote:


KN, sorry to tell but the old dog died a long ago. Now we are worshiping the mummified dog.

bro, the 'mummified dog' has been resurrected.
there r cases of young adults buying new turntables to listen to daddy's LP collection.
vinyl lovers are not just from the old folks home. a new gen of young ones are now spinning the LPs.

sflam wrote:

musicmusic wrote:
KN, sorry to tell but the old dog died a long ago. Now we are worshiping the mummified dog.

bro, the 'mummified dog' has been resurrected.
there r cases of young adults buying new turntables to listen to daddy's LP collection.
vinyl lovers are not just from the old folks home. a new gen of youhg ones are now spinning the LPs.

Yup, thats very true, many from early to mid 20's and quite passionate about it thereon. Seasoned audiophiles will rediscover more potential and great sounds compared to decades ago. I myself discovered so much I've missed before. I'm so so glad I never threw out my collection from a past era. If I did, that would be among the biggest mistakes of my life.

musicmusic wrote:KN, sorry to tell but the old dog died a long ago. Now we are worshiping the mummified dog.

The industry numbers speak for themselves... & LP sales , ironically, are on the uptrend.

http://uwire.com/2010/05/27/music-feature-vinyl-sales-exploding/

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1702369,00.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/06/vinyl-sales-to-hit-another-high-point-in-2009.html

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2011/05/vinyl-poised-to-make-further-gains-time-to-ask-what-does-it-all-mean/

Note that most industry figures do not account for s/hand trading of used vinyl in places like e-Bay and other specialty stores.

Our local guy Mr. Rama (the "Bluesman") @ Amcorp weekend fleamarket seems to be making a decent living importing used but decent condition vinyl from all over the world and selling them locally here.

But of course, its understandable for a generation of "quick-gratification PSP Wii & iPod/iPad gadgetry convenience and instant-noodles" kids to never comprehend the appeal of vinyl.


Now... back to the music...

Ah... it is not the Carly Simon song, but a recent song I think sang by this black lady singer who raps and then ends with "Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful".

The other annoying song that is often played nowadays is this, what I think is, trance music. We have this latin bloke mumble a few sentences in spanish or something and then this synthesizer comes in with a very simple and short tune. In the background is of course the mandatory boom-bippity-boom accompaniment. Then after repeating the same tune for the umpteenth time, this latin bloke sings "papa americano". And the whole thing repeats again ad nauseum. Extremely annoying !!!!!

But the trouble with being a music lover, after a while the song got so annoying that I find myself boobing my head a few times and when it is time for that latin bloke to come in, joins him with 'papa americano' !

Back to the main topic of this thread. My experience and circle of knowledge is of course limited to what system I have been fortunate to be able to listen to. But after hearing a number of the current hi-res examples, Zodiac, DCs (all of the models in fact), Weiss, etc, vs some of the best turntables I have the fortune to listen to, I still find digital lacking when compared to vinyl -for my- personal requirements and tastes. In terms of hifi, they do everything well and in fact with the hi-res version and if we compare to a normal issue LP, they can in fact come quite close. But if we compare apples to apples, then they simply lack some critical ingredients related to the basic foundation of the music itself, in particular the timing of the music.

Of all the hi-res systems I have heard, the DCs Scarlatti comes the closest to a high-end turntable. But ultimately still lacks in direct comparison. However, it is also true that the differences might need a very good system itself before they are properly manisfested.

my view is that vinyl still wins in terms of spatial details and soundstaging. there's more space around the singers, musicians, etc.
also there's a greater sense of 'naturalness'.

however, these are things that cannot be measured.

Its not only that.. the original or early release records have fresher recordings stamped in, soon after the artist releases it for sale. Countless cd reissues or transfers say after 20-30 years, God knows how they stored or where the masters are from, perhaps the digital transfer to CD contribute to further sound degradation, the CD album just doesn't sound good anymore. I was reading somewhere, people found the REAL master tape of Carole King's Tapestry in Lou Adler's HOUSE!... what the heck it was doing there? and assumed it was never used for LP pressing or subsequent duplication. Another set or grade of masters were used for the actual release.. so goes the story!..I DIDN'T KNOW THAT!..till I read it somewhere.

Compare to the ori LP, jaw drop man! I've numerous examples in my collection. Buy the CD issue, I thought that was the last of it...but when listen to the real good LP... you'll see my jaw and teeth drop to the floor with awe. Of course there's exceptions.
Having said that, phono stages have improved by leaps and bounds with latest electronic technology available now. What was manufactured decades ago do sound dated (not denying anyone who enjoy such). Present phonos are lower noise, better resolve and performance with all sorts available to suit any budget. Spoilt for choice nowadays.

Bro, the 'mummified dog' has been resurrected.
there r cases of young adults buying new turntables to listen to daddy's LP collection.
vinyl lovers are not just from the old folks home. a new gen of young ones are now spinning the LPs..

Aieseman, there are also many youngster buying the blue diamond pill- Viagra. So that means they are suffering from erectile dysfunction?

0.8% of the total sales is nothing to shout about. It is like RM2.80 against RM319. But as I said, it will be in the same category as vintage/classic car collectors clubs. They are also growing.

I notice no one want to talk about Ivor Tierferbrun.

There are so many things to talk about vinyl and why we like them.

But we shouldn't close our mind when there are evidence pointing there may not be any difference between digital and vinyl when done equally.

If I were a young boy going to KLAV show and visiting this forum regularly, my first impression of superb sound is formed based on opinion given by regulars here.

My young mind would be attracted to $100000 turntable even without listening to a single LP. The design and the size of Clear Audio Statement is enough to assure me that should be the best sound.


Surely we can have discussion about real difference and demonstrate they are real but of course after spending $100000 you wouldn want to say a $1500 SACD player is more than adequate.

So can we discuss about Ivor and the Canadian encounter? That would take us to the OP question why vinyl is likeable.

Haveing being fortunate enough to listen to not 1, but 2 Clearaudio Statements in town (one sounding better than the other as well, thanks to differing configurations and setup expertise of course), it is safe to say that the trusty old vinyl format isn't going to be making any exit soon.

Add to this the modern mfg techniques of improved plastic quality, precision cutter heads, and also much improved electronics in both the recording stage and the playback stage... all this adds up to a GREATER enjoyment of music that currently no digital medium can rival at the present.

Clearaudio Statement out of reach ? No problem, some of the smaller brethren like an Ambient or Performance SE, or a Roksan TMS or Xerxes & a decently spec'ed cartridge/tonearm combo & equally competent phono stage would suffice too.

But if comparing sar a Rega P3/24 (which is what I have) and a budget minded cart like a Elys2, against a midrange CD player .... i'd have to say the CD player has the edge in sonic qualities here. But this comparison is easily breached once it goes to the region of the Rega P5 with a reputable MC cart. The Vinyl sonic quality suddenly quantum leaps above CD format.

So for those who think that CD is still better than vinyl no matter what, perhaps its time to go and explore abit and go listen to properly set up TT system (which sadly, not many hifi shops are able to do these days safe for a few far and scarce).

TT setup is a labour of passion. Again, in our age of instant-gratification, most would rather plop in a CD, plant their rear-ends on the couch, and start the finger aerobics with the remote control.

On the discussion of a more mathematics and physics nature, there is no comparison between "Digital and Analog done equally". Both are distinctly and fundamentally different. The closest one can get is how to do each one to the best of its ability for it to best mimick the ORIGINAL SOURCE aka "sound". And the Original Source so happens to be of an analog medium.

Nevermind about Ivor Tieferwho. Lets get into the interesting subject of analog filters vs digital filters, or even perhaps to start off with the basics of a Linear-Time-Invariant (LTI) System which forms such a great fundamental of audio circuitry and the like. Nevermind LTI systems... lets start with Maxwell's equations first ... without which, no electrical equipment or device would come into being today.

Or perhaps how about some Fourier series to begin with , and start decomposing sound to its fundamental building blocks of pure sinusoids....


Oppps... gotta get back to the music & enjoy it first!

About the Ivor Canadian case, personally I would be interested in the parameters and environments of the test. What equipments were used ? What kind of listening environment ? How was the test conducted ? What type of music was played ? Who supplied the source (LP, CD, hi-res) and what kind of quality are they ?

I do not want it to be like the Lampizator comparison I read recently where looking at the details of the test, it turns out the Lamp was several times more expensive than all the other DACs in the test. A later review given was fairer but then the conclusion from the later test was a lot more uncertain. This is not to single out Lampizator as I am sure it is a good DAC since it has so many fans. But it is a good example to illustrate why I want the details.

You know, if I am to listen to the 'papa americano' song, I am sure I won't be able to tell the difference between MP3 or CD or vinyl ! I will be honest in that A LOT depends on the type of music used in the comparison.

musicmusic wrote:

But as I said, it will be in the same category as vintage/classic car collectors clubs.

people have been talking abt turntables and vinyl ending up in antiques shops eversince cd was launched in the 1980s.
today, new lps are still being pressed, new cartridges are still being launched, new phono preamps are still being made, new tonearms are still being made and new turntables are still being launched (chk out the rega rp3 at the KLIAVS).

sflam wrote:new tonearms are still being made and new turntables are still being launched (chk out the rega rp3 at the KLIAVS).

New? I think those are more of "improved and enhanced". Its based on the decades old Planar 3 fundamental architecture and design.

You mean like 'NEW ! old stock' ?

even the "decades old rega planar 3" is not in the vintage collector's club category yet...

musicmusic, the DBT involving Ivor Tiefenbrun compared:

- straight wire vs.
- ADC-DAC

The report noted that the noise floor of the ADC-DAC was audibly higher than straight wire, yet Tiefenbrun failed to pick it up. This tells me something about his powers of perception.

I am involved in double blind tests. As a physician, every day I read journals describing double blind tests in my field. I know full well that a DBT involving ONE person is completely meaningless, especially if the result is negative - because DBT's inherently have a strong negative bias, unless the study is carefully designed. The only persuasive power of a DBT like this is for idealogues who have preconcieved notions who are desperately looking for "evidence" to support their ridiculous claims, like you.

If you can not tell the difference between straight wire and ADC-DAC, there is something wrong with you. Pure and simple.

I have a DEQX, which has an ADC-DAC. I can easily hear the difference between straight wire and ADC-DAC, and I have passed double blind tests to show there is a difference. If you come to Melbourne, I can demonstrate it to you.

I don't think any Rega would be a collectible, not even 3 more decades down the road. Firstly, it doesn't have classic fine engineering nor the overall price value, moreover still in production, common and easily acquired from the used market. I'm unsure if LP12 Sondek will also have the same fate for now, because of the large numbers produced, not exactly a rare item, moreover still in production albeit improved and enhanced to a high degree of refinement. They won't be in the same boat as Garrard 301, Thorens TD124/125, some notable Lenco, EMT??, which are all not produced anymore. Ironically, take any open reel deck and people will say its vintage stuff, simply because its something from a past era and obsolete.

Oooo!! I'd sure like to have a Thorens TD124 or 125 ! Just purely for Nostalgia!

Funnily though, no one misses the 8-track piece of crap....

mugenfoo wrote:Oooo!! I'd sure like to have a Thorens TD124 or 125 ! Just purely for Nostalgia!

Funnily though, no one misses the 8-track piece of crap....

I do, because there's one sitting in my showcase, the very first car stereo I owned and entertained me during the U days, never saw its life in the car. Pioneer TP-727. Pity all the 8tracks never lasted the years.

WongKK wrote:musicmusic, the DBT involving Ivor Tiefenbrun compared:

- straight wire vs.
- ADC-DAC

The report noted that the noise floor of the ADC-DAC was audibly higher than straight wire, yet Tiefenbrun failed to pick it up. This tells me something about his powers of perception.

I am involved in double blind tests. As a physician, every day I read journals describing double blind tests in my field. I know full well that a DBT involving ONE person is completely meaningless, especially if the result is negative - because DBT's inherently have a strong negative bias, unless the study is carefully designed. The only persuasive power of a DBT like this is for idealogues who have preconcieved notions who are desperately looking for "evidence" to support their ridiculous claims, like you.

If you can not tell the difference between straight wire and ADC-DAC, there is something wrong with you. Pure and simple.

hey Doc, don't they also do some sort of clinical trials on a certain number of test patients, and then give a selected segment some of the new trial drug, vs some segment of a placebo, etc etc etc to test out the efficacy of a particular new drug ?

So perhaps the same needs to be done for double blind hifi tests as well. If >80% of a potpurri of audiophiles, musicphiles, sonicphiles, etc etc cannot truly differentiate between digital vs. analog or CD vs vinyl... then only we can safely conclude that digital has truly come of age and surpassed all known analog mediums on the face of this planet.

On a sidenote,
poor Ivor Tiefendude, isn't he kinda old already? .. so lets give him a break here shall we? Coz one day we'll all grow old (god willing) one day too and our hearing will get worse and worse and ... well ... everyone gets the picture here. So he's not a good example nor should be taken as representative as the entire hifi universe.

cmboy wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:Oooo!! I'd sure like to have a Thorens TD124 or 125 ! Just purely for Nostalgia!

Funnily though, no one misses the 8-track piece of crap....

I do, because there's one sitting in my showcase, the very first car stereo I owned and entertained me during the U days, never saw its life in the car. Pioneer TP-727. Pity all the 8tracks never lasted the years.

OK, if i manage to dig out any old plastic 8track from the attic, i'll give u a holler & you can have it to proudly display it next to your 8track player. But the tape is probably all fungi'rised and could very well be a petri plate of some mutated strain of H1F1 strain...

In my opinion it boils down to the 'original source' (the recording not the musical instruments, that is) which, nowadays (2011) are all digital. Correct me if I am wrong, I think analogue recordings(on tape) except for direct to disc (2-channel direct cut LP), is long gone. Before digital, the many tape tracks (from each mic) are MIXED (by someone, according to his liking & ability) into 2 tracks (L&R) and from this 'master' the commercial LPs and cassette tapes are reproduced those days. So, for me, I did not really care too much about the 'imaging' (the hype about pin point location of instruments, depth etc) cos all these have been altered (even switched sides, by adjusting the levels of each channel) by mixing engineer - unless of course the recording is a 2 mic set up direct cut to disc.

Commercial CDs (16/44.1) of early analogue recordings were then made from digitizing the analogue tapes (and digital technology of the 80s/90s were at its infancy) and could not match the vinyl reproduced from the same master tape. Its a fact that some CDs (of oldies) were made from digitizing the playback of the vinyl LP and these could only be worse than the LP itself. It is like taking a photo of a photograph.

The fact is, today, I presume all audio recordings are done digitally. I do not know the specifications of the studio/professional digital format. And from these the digital master (in 2 channel L&R) are 'created' (again man made) and further 'downgraded' into the commercial CD level (16/44.1) or DSD for SACD. Hence we are able to download HD recordings (say, 24/192 already downmixed) from the web nowadays. So, making LPs from modern recordings is 'going backwards' using digital master - depending on at which 'level' of digital master is used and the DAC used to cut the LP, the result may vary from label to label. If you ask me, in this case, digital will eventually have the edge over vinyl.

Earlier on, some suggested that digital (read CD) is superior in 'bass' and inferior in 'treble' compared to LP - I tend to agree (from listening). Its not surprising as digital is about sampling and at a fixed rate say 44.1k, the lowest freq got most samples while 20kHz sound got only 2 samples per waveform maybe explains why the treble sounds unnatural in CDs.

Returning to the thread question - I prefer vinyl LP for oldies only - not so much for the sound but for the songs because many are not available on CDs. But for modern recordings, digital is the way to go but its full potential may not available commercially as yet.

I have a DEQX, which has an ADC-DAC. I can easily hear the difference between straight wire and ADC-DAC

Excellent Doc! I agree that Vinyl sounds more real like and I like it also.

Is it the recording and playback equalization? Or the is something magical about analogue?

I still like many oldies in LP but not so much with the new ones but some do sound superior than CD or even SACD.

Since you have a AD/DA could you share a short clip of samples from straight wire and thru AD/DA?

I am sure you are aware of the term vinyl fatigue. When you play a vinyl over an over again the sound changes due to heat generated by the friction. So much so if you were to record the first track, two or more times you will find difference in each recording. But is the first one is better or the third on is better? Difference alone does not mean better.

I prefer vinyl LP for oldies only - not only for the sound but also the songs because many are not available on CDs. But for modern recordings, digital is the way to go as its full potential is not available commercially as yet.

Do you know if you were to spin a lp in a room but the sound is actually coming from a CD player hidden away from the sight of participants and then if you play the same CD player with full view. The participant have a biased preference towards the sound with LP spinning?

musicmusic wrote:Since you have a AD/DA could you share a short clip of samples from straight wire and thru AD/DA?

Do you mean that you want me to record a clip of my system playing music on my camcorder and use that as a basis to compare straight wire vs ADC/DAC? In other words - ADC-DAC-ADC again, only this time the second ADC is a low quality video format?

Do you know if you were to spin a lp in a room but the sound is actually coming from a CD player hidden away from the sight of participants and then if you play the same CD player with full view. The participant have a biased preference towards the sound with LP spinning?

Did you know that if you put red dye in white wine and ask a panel of experts to taste it, they will think it is red wine? What is the point of playing tricks with your perception like this? All it shows is that people are suggestible. I don't dispute that.

[/quote]

What is the point of playing tricks with your perception like this? All it shows is that people are suggestible. I don't dispute that

.[/quote]

It shows that some people are listening with their eyes and not their ears.

now where did i put that darn stylus gauge? Wanna use to to make sure the lens is focusing the laser beam properly with the correct tracking force...

...old dog died?
Ms Vinyl was first introduced to me in the 60's by my father. She was black and was a lot of fun for a little kid. We got along pretty well until Ms CD came into my life in the 80's; a beautiful maiden in a shiny silk dress. However, after a while she started to bring strange friends. There was Ms DAT, Ms DCC, Ms MD, Ms DVD-A and Ms SACD. Then things got weird, her friends started coming from space or cyberspace as she calls it.They don't even have names, just numbers like 16/44.1, 24/96 and 24/192.
BTW, almost all of her earlier friends have disappeared. Ms CD has also had various major surgeries (no, our Doc WongKK wasn't the culprit ) to improve her looks, so these days she introduces herself as Ms Download, Ms Hi-res or just call me 'Digital' she says. She is now an even bigger cheapskate because she has found means to stop paying her patrons.
Whilst I know where she came from, I have absolutely no idea where she is heading for. The only sure thing is, she has made lots of promises but failed to deliver.
Amazingly, Ms Vinyl has remained true to her colours and she sounds exactly (actually better) like she did close to 50 years ago when we first met. No hormones, no botox, no surgeries, nothing.
"This dog ain't dead but she's one hell of a bitch!"

So the OLD LADY is still better after years of bitching with China Dolls and Russian Babes.

When we get older, we always retreat to our cocoon for comfort. New gagdets with funny number looks alien.

We always fall back to our comfort zone, for good or for worse.

Afterall, after fifty, getting up to change tracks every few minutes is good for yr heart.

Don't know about yr hearing.

Cheers

zulkifar,
yr father introduced Ms Vinyl to u and chances r u will introduce Ms Vinyl to yr son.
so the "one hell of a bitch" will survive for one more generation....
cheers!

so.. whats the proper tracking force for a KSS-240A pickup lens ... Might anyone know ??

Yes, do a bounce test on the lens with your thumb and if it bounces up like a Lueen Sondek subchassis, its good to go!... easy isn't it?

proper tracking force for a KSS-240A pickup lens?

try 44.1 gms.

All LP bullies, please pick someone your size for a challenge on this format war .

44.1 CD is equivalent to your phonograph record date in 1920s! So please be fair.

Vinyl has come of age and it has reached near the pinnacle of anologue technology, you ought to also allow digital format to reach its pinnacle before we take on this warfare, say.. when its 16,000 bit x 8,888,888.2kHz?

However, on the subject matter discussed, I do prefer vinyl playback BUT(!!), only when it is a superb set-up high-end ones and essentially with AIME cable technologies, which total cost can be ! Reasons?

On the ground of its natural tones & nuances.

I embrace both formats in the name of music appreciation, either format wins, I am a victim.

Jo Ki

44.1 CD is equivalent to your phonograph record date in 1920s! So please be fair

No, that’s not fair. According to FPI table Phono is somewhere near 0.8 . And CD is somewhere near 7.1 slightly higher than vinyl.

Those who watched Obama's inauguration would have heard Aretha and Yo Yo Ma’s performance. Commentators were praising the musical performance. And that’s the feeling vinyl lovers feel when they listen vinyl, i.e close to live performance.

But it wasn’t live. They heard a prerecorded recording broadcasted over the speakers, something like the Minni Vinilli guy. Yet the audience didn’t know. Who knows? maybe they played the vinyl recording?

musicmusic wrote:

They heard a prerecorded recording broadcasted over the speakers, something like the Minni Vinilli guy.

the minni vanilli episode was totally diff. the two 'singers' Fab Morvan and Rob Pilatus who comprised minni vanilli released a hit which actually used the voices of back-up singers. Morvan and Pilatus spoke bad english with heavy german accents. they won a grammy, but when it was revealed that they did not sing on the hit album, the grammy was revoked. the back-up singers then released an album called 'the real minni vanilli'.

during obama's inauguration, aretha sang and yo yo ma played, but the song broadcast on the speakers was not from the live performance - it was a pre-recorded version. but it was aretha's voice and yo yo ma's playing of the cello.

I may be old but I am EXTREMELY comfortable with digital. After all I earned a living from it for more than a quarter of a century as a professional.

So I tend to see things more pragmatically, more from the music point of view. In this case, I enjoy my music more from vinyl. If I don't have a choice, I will listen to it in digital but somehow I cannot fully indulge myself. The performers just seem to be too half-hearted. Perhaps it is a difference in the mentality and attitude of different generations (between performers in the older days and of today) ? But when available, the vinyl of the same album indulges me while the digital (up to 24/96 anyway) still fails to do so totally. So on the other hand, perhaps its more due to the format ? Whatever it is, I don't claim to know the answer.

If you like Tom Petty, their latest MOJO album is clearly stated to have a 24/96 master. With the LP, we also get to download the 'hi-res' digital version for free. Unfortunately when I downloaded it, I found it was 24/48 instead. Compared to the LP, the 24/48 was very inferior. But an argument can be made that this is because the original digital master was 'handicapped' (quite rightfully) by the down-sampling to 48kHz, eventhough by right, the LP itself can be considered a regular 'commercial pressing' by Reprise (I suspect someone will eventually re-release it in 180gram audiophile version).

I believe I remember reading that Norah Jone's first album 'Come Away With Me' is in 24/96 digital. Not sure if I am right or wrong. Recently I was able to compare a 24/96 digital version of this album against the normal commercial issue LP (bought from Tower Records at Lot-10 many years ago). The LP still won overall though the digital wasn't humiliated. However, this comparison is a bit like the reverse of the Tom Petty case above, i.e. the 24/96 is like direct cut LP and we can say if we use it to 'challenge' a normal commercial LP, then it is the LP which is being 'handicapped'. It is interesting to note that the LP is still better. But the turntable system is also higher-end than the digital system.

I understand some studios are now starting to revert back to analog masters, but using the new generation of analog mastering equipment, with very wide dynamic capability (well over 120dB) and supposedly a frequency response up to 100kHz or more.

From the commercial point of view, labels are now starting to release in LPs again. Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, numerous new 'Gen-Z' artistes are now actually available on LP (I suppose it's only a matter of time before Wonder Girls, and 'papa americano' will appear on LP as well ).

The reason is simple. After hearing the 24/96 Norah Jones, I thought I too would like to have a copy since I now have the ability to play 'hi-res' 24/96 format. I was quickly able to get a copy from 'someone' (I know la, but I never said I am a perfect little angel !). This is theoretically a direct copy, no degradation - we just copied the file. It is all digital so theoretically it is a perfect copy. Before anyone argues about this, do bear in mind that the economy of the whole world has depended on this as a fact for over half a century by now ! This includes you being able to depend on your salary being banked in every month. And whenever you make an ATM or CDM transaction, a credit card purchase, a cheque deposit, an internet banking transaction and thousand and millions of other such transactions.

So whoever sold the 24/96 in the first place has lost a sale.

I first heard Tom Petty MOJO at a good friend's place. After subsequent visits and hearing, I grew to like the album, especially the track Candy. I would like to have my own LP I said. So I BOUGHT the LP (from Acoustic Sounds). In this case, the label gained a new sale.

This is one of the reasons why many recording labels are starting to go back to the LP format. So it seems that instead of it going to die, it is definitely going to live.

cmboy wrote:Yes, do a bounce test on the lens with your thumb and if it bounces up like a Lueen Sondek subchassis, its good to go!... easy isn't it?

sflam wrote:proper tracking force for a KSS-240A pickup lens?

try 44.1 gms.

Ahh !!! Must try this tonight !!

Thanxxx, You guys are de best !!

Music sales are generally going down. Even selling 1 million album is a big thing nowadays.

How do you sell more to a shrinking market? Repackage them of course! We got audiophiles who would buy almost anything; like pebbles, magical woods, even cat litters – no kidding! To fill speaker standla..

Most LP buyers already got similar albums either in CD or the old vinyl. Reissue the same package in 180gm LP, you are guaranteed to sell a few to those customers.

Reissue the same CD in XRCD some will buy again.

Maybe in 10 years time the vinyls would be the only available format for purchase over the counter. Rest of the music sales are going to be all digital download. Once DSDIFF or 64bit 100Mhz format becomes the standard and with super fast download internet speed then who would buy a CD anymore?

Looks like the mummy may come to back life.

KN, which are the studios reverting to analogue?

jokiarch wrote:However, on the subject matter discussed, I do prefer vinyl playback BUT(!!), only when it is a superb set-up high-end ones and essentially with AIME cable technologies, which total cost can be ! Reasons?

On the ground of its natural tones & nuances.

I embrace both formats in the name of music appreciation, either format wins, I am a victim.

Jo Ki

Biggest casualty will be the wallet and bank account.

WongKN wrote:From the commercial point of view, labels are now starting to release in
LPs again. Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, numerous new 'Gen-Z' artistes are
now actually available on LP (I suppose it's only a matter of time
before Wonder Girls, and 'papa americano' will appear on LP as well ).

The Lady Gaga LP is nice indeed. A fellow member showed and played it for me to listen.

htkaki wrote:
The Lady Gaga LP is nice indeed. A fellow member showed and played it for me to listen.

to stir up some shit.
lady gaga recorded the album in digital (probably using protools at 24/96).
the lady gaga LP is made from a digital master.
the lady gaga cd is also made from the same digital master.
how come the LP can sound better than the cd?

Too bad Lady Gaga's voice is not "digital" to begin with, otherwise we can just locate the SPDIF jack (probably buried in her hairjob or outlandish headgear perhaps) and just pipe out the bitstream and record it directly on SSD storage.

LOL!

sflam wrote:

htkaki wrote:
The Lady Gaga LP is nice indeed. A fellow member showed and played it for me to listen.

to stir up some shit.
lady gaga recorded the album in digital (probably using protools at 24/96).
the lady gaga LP is made from a digital master.
the lady gaga cd is also made from the same digital master.
how come the LP can sound better than the cd?

sflam, you already answered the question yourself without realising it.
Of course the LP will sound better than the CD.

Whats the "CD" format resolution again ? .... anyone? Don't be shy...

Looks like the shit that was stirred up... just got swallowed back by the same source.

musicmusic wrote:

44.1 CD is equivalent to your phonograph record date in 1920s! So please be fair

No, that’s not fair. According to FPI table Phono is somewhere near 0.8 . And CD is somewhere near 7.1 slightly higher than vinyl.

In terms of both formats' technology, I mean, vinyl is reaching the pinnacle of it now, but not the digital format, which CD is only the 1st generation digital medium. Comparing this to vinyl's first generation, the first phonograph record or LP was done in 1920s.

Digital music format has yet reached its pinnacle. The HiRes we talked about here is only the latest improved version, and the journey hardly reached the peak of this medium.

I am not talking about their FPI.

On another note, talented but troubled singer, Amy Winehouse has passed away at young age of 27.

In terms of both formats' technology, I mean, vinyl is reaching the pinnacle of it now, but not the digital format, which CD is only the 1st generation digital medium. Comparing this to vinyl's first generation, the first phonograph record or LP was done in 1920s.

Reaching pinnacle? Then how come vinyl’s channel separation is still at the pitiable 30db? Without good channel separation you cannot get precise stereo. No perfect in phase. CD is at least 3 times that of vinyl.
KK stated earlier that he still preferred vinyl over DEQX. But DEQX corrects as many errors as possible to give correct sound. So is the problem here bad sound is good sound?
Our voice is analogue . Our ears mechanism also analogue like. Yet, the final information transferred to our brain is digital like. They are pulses. Tut..tut…tut..tut..like. 100hz is 100 pulses in one second.
That’s how our signal encoded to the brain for interpretation. Not continuous wave or electrical signal. But each neuron can only process up to 500 beat per second.
So when more than 500hz signal is received other neutrons share the signals. Something like multibitlah.