hi rez music -- questions from a newbie

by Lamkochai Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:02 pm

having bought a bryston digital player from the av show recently, i am now able to play music file ripped from cd. as there is a lot of technical portion which i am not very familiar with, i hope experts from this forum can help me. my questions are:

1) what is the usual program you all used to rip a cd? is the WAV loseless oversampling (196khz) format ripped by my window media player good enough?

2) there are many formats available such as WAV, FLAC etc. which one is the best format?

3) where to buy these hi res music? any recommended website where i can download music (best still if its free)? lazy to rip my cd 1 by 1.

4) i am connecting my ext hdd to the player via cheap usb cable. will the sound improve if i change the usb cable? if my ext hdd contain other files other than the music files, will it affect the sound too?

forgive me if my questions sound stupid. i am like a dinosaur in this digital era. thank you

by mugenfoo Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:09 pm

1) It really doesn't matter much what software you use to rip CDs, because if you rip from a CD, the resolution is already limited to 16bit/44.1KHz, even if the fancy ripper program could upsample to 24/96. You won't be getting any new information since at the source ( being the CD) it was already killed, cooked, and preserved in 16/44.1KHz resolution.

But if you're anal about getting bit-perfect rips, try this software called "Exact Audio Copy".

2) WAV is good and the most popular format to date. Some people claim FLAC is inferior but there really isn't any technical basis why it should be inferior since it is also a lossless format. Same goes for Apple-Lossless.

3) To buy legit stuff, there are a few labels selling them online. Chesky is one of them (i think). Dunno about the "Free" part... since most "free" stuff are the not-so-legal means of getting them.

4) Depends. If the USB link is between the HDD and the Bryston, it should-not matter since the signals being carried via the USB cable are not timing-critical, but packetised and bursty in nature. Exactly what happens between a PC and an external HDD/Thumbdrive.

But if the USB cable is used for timing critical data, such as between a PC and an external USB DAC (which if I'm not mistaken, is irrelevant to the BDA-1) then its extremely important. More so if the link between the PC and the external USB DAC is isochronous (as it is commonly implemented).

Finally:
The key to enjoying HiRes stuff is to get NATIVE HiRez material in the first place. Like those direct Studio release of original 24/96 stuff.

Cheers.

by Lamkochai Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:29 pm

read some local audio blog saying that the musics ripped from their cds sound better. one of the author used bladelius cd player. cant really tell it myself. lazy to make the comparison. want to rip the cds because it is more convenient to change albums from my laptop than to change the cds

the only site that sell hiRes music files i know is by Linn Record. they dont produce cds anymore

by **Hi-Fi 4 Sale** Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:54 pm

Lamkochai,

You brought up some interesting questions. Can't add much value now, save to say that we're planning a session on Computer Audio, most probably within the next 1-2 months, definitely after Hari Raya.

Since you are using a Bryston setup, a good source of info would be our buddy jokiarch, as he is very familiar with it and used it to good effect at the 2011 KLIAV show too.

We want jokiarch to be one of the esteemed guest speakers (hope you are OK with me pre-announcing you, jokiarch) and the venue for this round would either be in a dealer in PJ or Seremban, with a controlled high quality setup.

I'm going to setup a Mac Mini with a budget DAC as a baseline, to show the potential difference in sound quality between the entry-level and high-end, as well as what's possible with a 'standard' setup for newcomers.

There's also the possibility of getting a radically different setup from one of our members, which we expect to produce a high-end result too, from seemingly unconventional components.

Stay tuned, until we fix a date with jokiarch, the hosting dealer and our other esteemed member.

BTW, you've got nice speakers. I'm sure one of our regulars here recognises those Virgo 25s!

Cheers,

by **WongKN** Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:03 pm

Lam,

My weak attempts in answering -some- of your questions. Note that my standard is only 'high-ish' res, i.e. 24/96 and not 24/192 as my Proceed does not support that. I also do not have a dedicated music streamer and am using my TVX media player temporarily. Below, your original questions are in italics and my responses in normal font.

1) what is the usual program you all used to rip a cd? is the WAV
loseless oversampling (196khz) format ripped by my window media player
good enough?

There are plenty of programs and I don't really think they make much difference as long as your CD is clean and your CD (DVD) reader is in good condition. I feel the key is to ensure a clean and accurate read OFF the CD, rather than the program itself which should employ the error detection and correction routine to ensure the read data are accurate. I have experimented with softwares like Cirlinca HD-Audio Solo, recommended by Linn, as well as others. My personal preference is to rip CDs into its native format - 16/44 and not do upsampling. The upsampled Tom Petty track I made, from 24/48 to 24/96 using HD-Audio came out as white noise on my Proceed. So be careful about compatibility, especially if you intend to use WAV for storage as what I am now using (my TVX does not support FLAC).

2) there are many formats available such as WAV, FLAC etc. which one is the best format?

I have been using WAV. FLAC should be good as well. They (WAV and FLAC) are the two standard formats for hi-res (24/96 and above). FLAC occupies less space than WAV. Both are 'loseless' meaning you get back the exact original copies. As FLAC compresses more, -in theory- the BDP-1 needs to 'work harder' during play. Whether or not that affects the sound, I am unable to answer.

3)
where to buy these hi res music? any recommended website where i can
download music (best still if its free)? lazy to rip my cd 1 by 1.

The most popular website for hi-res music by far is HDTracks (www.hdtracks.com). However BE CAREFUL with their definition of 'high-res' because they now classify 16/44 as hi-res. Hereto, it has always been accepted that only 24/96 and above are high-res. 24/48 are 'high-quality' and 16/44 standard res. When I register to HDTracks, I was given a complimentary sampler of hi-res tracks. I think this should still be available. They are only up to 24/96 (which is fine with me).

Another website you can try is HifiTrack (www.Hifitrack.com) and this is managed by a Hong Kong company. Again they have a mixture of standard res 16/44 (I am using my own definition) and high-res (24/96 and 24/192). They offer popular chinese artistes but unfortunately the famous popular ones like Cai Qin, Paula Tsui, etc are offered in either standard res or UP-sampled to hi-res, i.e. NOT native high-res. Whether or not the up-sampled hi-res versions are worth the extra cost I do not know. Note that many of their catalogs are supposedly offered only for sale in Hong Kong and/or Taiwan but I really don't see how they can enforce it.

Many of the non-mainstream labels like Chesky, Linn, Naim, etc are offering true native high-res music but not many are available in download mode. Whether or not you will like the music or their artistes is dependent on your taste.

If your taste is a bit wide and includes a lot of mainstream artistes, you will have to stick to the trusty CD.

4)
i am connecting my ext hdd to the player via cheap usb cable. will the
sound improve if i change the usb cable? if my ext hdd contain other
files other than the music files, will it affect the sound too?

We had a discussion about the effects of USB cable on SQ not that long ago. Perhaps you can search the forum to reread that thread. One good friend found that it is not so much the USB cable used but the type of HDD used. A 2.5" HDD sounds worse than a 3.5" HDD simply because the 2.5" is powered off the USB cable. So it is postulated that digital noise from the power section in the HDD found its way back to the powering device (in this case, it's also the Bryston BDP-1) and affects the sound somehow. With a 3.5" which has its own dedicated supply, power it off a different circuit or wall plug, or isolate it, the SQ is perceived to be better.

reason for editing : found the chinese hd website. the correct url is above.

by sflam Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:34 am

1) what is the usual program you all used to rip a cd? is the WAV loseless oversampling (196khz) format ripped by my window media player good enough?

try exact audio copy or dbpoweramp to rip cds. my view is it's better to rip cds in native 16/44.1

2) there are many formats available such as WAV, FLAC etc. which one is the best format?

wav is uncompressed lossless and the files are huge. flac is compressed lossless and the files are smaller. it's debatable whether there is a diff in sound quality.
choosing which format depends on which laptop u r using - mac or windows-based. mac's itunes supports MP3, AIFF, WAV, MPEG-4, AAC (.m4a) and Apple Lossless. so mp3, aac and wav files can be played on both mac or windows-based laptops.
in yr case, this is not vital since u r using the bryston media player. but just in case u decide to use a mac it's better to rip everthing into wav format.
if u r downloading from the internet, use flac cos it'll take shorter time.

3) where to buy these hi res music? any recommended website where i can download music (best still if its free)? lazy to rip my cd 1 by 1.

try these sites:

www.itrax.com

www.highdeftapetransfers.com

www.linnrecords.com

www.dgmlive.com

www.hdtracks.com

www2.deutschegrammophon.com

www.2l.no/hires/index.html

www.shockwave-sound.com

www.referencerecordings.com

www.magnatune.com

www.unipheyemusic.com

http://boomkat.com

www.junodownload.com

www.stompy.com

www.turntablelab.com/digital

http://www.acousence.de

www.hifitrack.com/en

www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk

http://www.bluecoastrecords.com

http://www.pristineclassical.com/More/DownloadFormats.html

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/index.php

you can also check the naim and cardas websites.

some of them are still offering free downloads.

4) i am connecting my ext hdd to the player via cheap usb cable. will the sound improve if i change the usb cable? if my ext hdd contain other files other than the music files, will it affect the sound too?

the answer to both questions - in theory it should not.

by jchong Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:50 am

Wow, a lot of good info here for those planning to switch to a media player. Thanks to all.

WongKN wrote:We had a discussion about the effects of USB cable on SQ not that long ago. Perhaps you can search the forum to reread that thread. One good friend found that it is not so much the USB cable used but the type of HDD used. A 2.5" HDD sounds worse than a 3.5" HDD simply because the 2.5" is powered off the USB cable. So it is postulated that digital noise from the power section in the HDD found its way back to the powering device (in this case, it's also the Bryston BDP-1) and affects the sound somehow. With a 3.5" which has its own dedicated supply, power it off a different circuit or wall plug, or isolate it, the SQ is perceived to be better.

Do you think using a SSD drive is better than conventional HDD?

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:10 am

In theory SSD is the best but the technology is still being developed and it does not offer the same amount of capacity as the HDD. HDD technology is well matured.

For hi-res digital music, again I found a lot depends on your personal taste in music. IMHO it is an extremely worthwhile effort to ensure that whatever 'hi-res' digital playback system you have, it -must- play back the venerable CD very well. The bulk of good music on digital is still available only in the RBCD medium.

by Mikapoh Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:41 am

Now this is what I called informative thread. I take my hats off for those who contribute and certainly a good guide for me to consider hi rez music.

Thanks sflam for the links.

by Mikapoh Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:49 am

WongKN wrote:IMHO it is an extremely worthwhile effort to ensure that whatever 'hi-res' digital playback system you have, it -must- play back the venerable CD very well. The bulk of good music on digital is still available only in the RBCD medium.

WongKN, errr.....care to elaborate further your above statement to playback CD well? And how do we gauge its performance?

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:07 am

What I meant to say was that one typical approach of someone who has decided to adopt 'hi-res' digital is that since it is 'so superior' to RBCD, the brand new 'state of the art' hi-res system is fully dedicated to hi-res only. This can be done to the extent that CD's are just an afterthought. If your music taste can be satisfied by the catalog currently available, great. For me personally, no. So I will also want to ensure my CDs play great as well. That is my main message.

by Mikapoh Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:20 am

Thanks WongKN for the clarification. Guess it is applicable to vinyl too. What really count first is our choice of music available in various mediums.

by **VS126** Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:50 pm

WongKN wrote: If your music taste can be satisfied by the catalog currently available, great. For me personally, no. So I will also want to ensure my CDs play great as well. That is my main message.

Somehow your 2 + 2 doesn't add up to 4.

When one embraced computer audio, all their CD collection wld be ripped into Harddisk. Some said it sounds better playing harddisk thru ascyn DAC. What you think is another matter.

As for me, I have all my CD's into harddisk and never looked back. I have my collection and my friend's collection into a RM300.00 harddisk. Thousands of CD's into a 2 terra byte harddisk which I can call up any songs or albums within seconds and all sorts of playing sequence. Controls thru my andriod or Ipad with all coverart and lyrics from the internet.

And sound quality which betters than most CD players. And we are not talking about HiREZ yet.

And my high end transport is a mere RM1,900.00 laptop computer fully optimised.

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:12 pm

Basically I am saying for me personally, I am looking at an approach where I want to ensure my CDs sounds the best it can. This is one of the primary criteria because I know I do not want to depend only on what is available for hi-res alone (with or without 24/192). So I want to maximize my enjoyment from whatever money I will have to spend in the future to complete my digital source.

So for example if for you the 1.9k laptop works fine for your standard and requirement, then it would be very good and the correct approach. For you. But if e.g. for myself if I find it is possible to get better sound with using another approach, then personally I would persue that option and look at how to integrate it into my overall digital solution. In this case, if for e.g. I feel that playing CD by ripping them and using the laptop as the music server is not giving me the best possible sound from my CDs, and that using a dedicated CD transport will give better sound, then I myself would probably be using two different means to feed my 'DAC', both a dedicated CD transport, and whatever music server I use for the 24/48, 24/96, etc source. This is of course, perculiar only to myself.

There is no firm solution. Whatever is best for you is the correct approach but may not necessarily be the best for others. So my opinion is everyone needs to evaluate and decide on what is best for them. It's their money in the end after all.

by Wikin Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:49 pm

VS126 wrote:And my high end transport is a mere RM1,900.00 laptop computer fully optimised.

Ah yes I like this word... fully optimized.

It is really important to fully optimize the laptop for audio only playback.

That means remove all background processing, remove all unnecessary software installation, no virus buster, no internet, no LAN etc etc.

And with FOOBAR I set the latency to the lowest 50ms.

Brand new battery.

MARVELLOUS Very Happy

by tycham Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:13 pm

WongKN wrote:

A 2.5" HDD sounds worse than a 3.5" HDD simply because the 2.5" is powered off the USB cable. So it is postulated that digital noise from the power section in the HDD found its way back to the powering device (in this case, it's also the Bryston BDP-1) and affects the sound somehow. With a 3.5" which has its own dedicated supply, power it off a different circuit or wall plug, or isolate it, the SQ is perceived to be better.

A 2.5" HDD consumes 2W or less and a 3.5"HDD, about 12W. Doesn't more power consumption means more contamination?

I have a couple of 2.5" external HDD with separate power supply.

One can always try this option by kwwong to separate the power supply for a USB external HDD.

hi rez music -- questions from a newbie Img00212

hi rez music -- questions from a newbie Img00212

by **VS126** Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:44 pm

WongKN wrote:
So for example if for you the 1.9k laptop works fine for your standard and requirement, then it would be very good and the correct approach. For you. But if e.g. for myself if I find it is possible to get better sound with using another approach, then personally I would persue that option and look at how to integrate it into my overall digital solution. In this case, if for e.g. I feel that playing CD by ripping them and using the laptop as the music server is not giving me the best possible sound from my CDs, and that using a dedicated CD transport will give better sound, then I myself would probably be using two different means to feed my 'DAC', both a dedicated CD transport, and whatever music server I use for the 24/48, 24/96, etc source. .

YMMY

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:05 pm

This is an interesting project for the DIY guy but I am not sure if it is for everyone. I can easily do this if I want but I personally wouldn't want to go through the hassle. Anyway, the findings and opinion that the 3.5" HDD sounded better than 2.5" HDD is from a good friend. I have not gotten to that stage yet.

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:23 pm

VS126,

It is like I said, if you find that using the laptop the way you play meets your needs and expectations, then it is great and it is the correct solution for you. It would also be a useful point for others to consider. Again I was explaining my own personal approach and that is to ensure CD sounds the best I can get it to sound. So it is not important what I feel about using a laptop. It is the approach & methodology itself. Even that is dependent on which type of music the individual puts emphasis on.

by **VS126** Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:40 pm

WongKN wrote: Anyway, the findings and opinion that the 3.5" HDD sounded better than 2.5" HDD is from a good friend. I have not gotten to that stage yet.

I think it is important to post personal experience and not hearsay.

Anyway I am just trying to reply to yr statement of insufficient music source for computer audio, which is actually the opposite.

I hope you will give yr view when you are more into computer audio, (if you ever do) and not shoot blindly. Your previous post on computer audio are all very mis-informed.

by mugenfoo Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:44 pm

wrote:
Oh BTW forgot to mention, I have top end Wadia 270 transport which uses Teac mechanism, MBL transport which uses CDM 2 Pro mechanism and Marantz DR99 which uses CDM 1 mechanism. Not exactly chicken feed.

OMG !! I have a cheap computer CD-ROM (Samsung brand i think) as a DIY CD Transport, a Cambridge Audio DACMagic, a puny Sherwood Integrated Amp and 20 year old Wharfedale bookself speakers... All these are totally chicken feed. Sad

i think i need to give up playing hifi already! Embarassed

by Lamkochai Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:58 pm

thank you all for the useful information. thank you sf lam for your suggested websites. btw hifi4sale admin, dont forget to announce the venue and date of your upcoming computer audio session in this site. i am looking forward to it.

as for whether ripped music sounds better compare to the original cd, i am still a bit sceptical about it. quite agreeable with wong suk though if you are planning to buy a new player, better buy one which can play both rbcd and hiRes well such as the bladelius or some cd players which have digital input and a 24/192khz able dac. personally, i will stil buy cd because it feels better to have something conventional and 'physical' with box, picture, lyric and short info on the singer. LP's are better in that sense as they have bigger pictures, sleeves etc.

the good things about hiRes or computer audio are they are probably cheaper (can share tracks among members, illegal?), easier to store and manage all the songs systemically like waht vs126 has pointed out.

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:25 pm

VS126,

I am afraid I do not understand what it is you are trying to say. My point has always been that hi-res music, 24/96 + 24/192 at the moment do not have enough choice to meet my personal needs but that it is OK if others like the catalog available which is great for them.

It has nothing to do with computer audio per se. To me, this so-called CAS is just a name, a marketing term for the use of a computer as the music server. I see the use of marketing terms in the computer industry everyday. For some it even means the use of the computer doing the DAC job itself. I personally don't see it as having anything to do with what I have said. If you add CD to your definition of computer audio catalog, then good for you but it doesn't mean that the definition of CAS includes CD. Actually CAS doesn't imply any music, just how to 'serve' the music to the DAC.

So my point has always been that CD playback is important to me and I point that out to others who shares my priority may want to consider my personal approach to the importance of CD playback quality which is what I shared.

So what it is that you are suggesting that I have been mis-informed ? If you have found your laptop to be the best for music serving, then good for you. But that doesn't mean I or anyone else who doesn't share the same opinion have been mis-informed or our opinions are invalid. Your opinion is yours and ours is ours. After all, this forum IS about sharing.

The same for the case about HDD. If someone I know tells me the opinion, then if there is a question, then I share it and it is up for discussion. If you don't like it, then it is really too bad. In the end, EVERYTHING everyone says is simply just their opinion only and nothing else.

Perhaps you should clearly explain what your views on computer audio are ?

by mugenfoo Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:35 pm

At the end of the day... "Only the Music"(tm) matters.

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:40 pm

Yes, only the music matters. As long as we get to hear what we want to hear.

by adrian4454 Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:18 pm

haha, it is always a ying and yang statement that we are falling into.

music only matters when the gear is decent enough. Otherwise, this forum wont exist at all. We are should need to strike a balance between these 2.

Since you want the 24/96, u better be sure ur system able to hear the resolution improvement it can offer. Otherwise, u r better off playing CDs~

IMO saja la.. Smile

by Mikapoh Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:25 pm

+1

After reading this and re-look @ my music collection, I have strong desire to optimize my CD playback. This is where I listen to my fav music albeit hi rez format is a possibility in the future.

WongKN, you've convinced me enuf to upgrade my CDP soon and this will happen on Friday! Shocked

Bad news is I will be poorer soon.

Ok, back to the thread topic.

by tangent Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:29 pm

Started out as a very interesting thread.

I noticed that Wong KN is using a media player as a basis for playing his hi-res files.

Also noticed the Dune HD Max media player at the KLAV show. The website tells me it will read / play WAV and FLAC and it seems to have a digital coax output.

Anyone has any thoughts on using this as a poor man's alternative to the Bryston or Electrocompaniet digital players?

The laptop / pc route also looks interesting but it's probably too complicated for a novice / technophobe like me.

cheers

by **Hi-Fi 4 Sale** Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:39 pm

Mikapoh wrote:+1

After reading this and re-look @ my music collection, I have strong desire to optimize my CD playback. This is where I listen to my fav music albeit hi rez format is a possibility in the future.

WongKN, you've convinced me enuf to upgrade my CDP soon and this will happen on Friday! Bad news is I will be poorer soon.

Ok, back to the thread topic.

Wahhh...which CDP?

by Mikapoh Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:06 pm

Hi-Fi 4 Sale wrote:
Mikapoh wrote:+1

After reading this and re-look @ my music collection, I have strong desire to optimize my CD playback. This is where I listen to my fav music albeit hi rez format is a possibility in the future.

WongKN, you've convinced me enuf to upgrade my CDP soon and this will happen on Friday! Bad news is I will be poorer soon.

Ok, back to the thread topic.

Wahhh...which CDP?

Errr.......The naim of the CD player is found in this sentence. Very Happy

After reading WongKN's words, I've no doubt whatsoever and I hope it lives up to its billing as higher-end CDP from its predecessor! Of course a home demo first as it involves quite a capital outlay....

Thanks guys.

by sflam Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:06 pm

mikapoh wrote:

you've convinced me enuf to upgrade my CDP soon and this will happen on Friday

why upgrade yr cd player? buy a good dac which accepts usb (at least 24/96) with toslink, coax, aes/ebu inputs and use yr existing cd player as transport.

this way, you future-proof your system.

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:13 pm

Mugen+Adrian+Mikapoh,

Hahahaha, looks like the proper statement should be

ENJOYING the music is the most important, only enjoying the music matters ! Laughing

I am glad to hear Mikapoh has made a decision to upgrade his CDP. Of course I am sad to hear he is a financially poorer man for it. But at least we know he is musically richer ! Laughing

by sflam Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:15 pm

lamkochai wrote:

if you are planning to buy a new player, better buy one which can play both rbcd and hiRes well such as the bladelius or some cd players which have digital input and a 24/192khz able dac.

be careful - some lower-end cd players may have usb inputs and 24/192 capable dacs, but the usb input does not utilise the 24/192 dac. many usb inputs have their own dacs which can handle only 16/48. sometimes this is not even mentioned in the product specs or brochures.

by mugenfoo Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:22 pm

Mikapoh wrote:+1

After reading this and re-look @ my music collection, I have strong desire to optimize my CD playback. This is where I listen to my fav music albeit hi rez format is a possibility in the future.

WongKN, you've convinced me enuf to upgrade my CDP soon and this will happen on Friday! Bad news is I will be poorer soon.

Ok, back to the thread topic.

Allow me to offer a different type of "poison" then instead.
Unless you are gunning for crazy high end CD player like a Teac Esoteric or a dCS Scarlatti, it may be worthwhile investing in a CAS system instead.

Here's why:
1) Future-Proof. You are future-proofing your CD collection and any digital media library collection. When some new format becomes mainstream, a computer system is better positioned it to handle it than a purpose built CD player.
Why go for a plain vanilla CD player that can only output SPDIF, or the usual analog outputs?

2) Flexibility of Formats. a Computer will play whatever you throw at it (except SACD which is just too paranoid). CD, CD-R, CD-RW, Flac, AIFF, MP4, AAC, 24/96, 24/192, etc etc. Its all software based. With the usual Optical & USB outputs, a Computer-based transport has the best flexibility.

3) Convenience of Storage. Plug in an external HDD and your music library instantly expands.

4) Versatility. With a typical computer's industry standard USB output, you have your choice of USB DACs. Which also goes back to future-proofing your investment. SPDIF via Coax and Toslink cannot go more than 24/96. Even a "Dual-wire AES/EBU" maxxes out at 24/196 already. But USB has more than enough bandwidth to cater for 32/384 formats (if and when it arrives) and beyond.

5) Portability. OK, maybe not so much for hifi but it is a Plus point.
If you are laptop based, you get extra conveniences in the mobility
dept.

Some recommendations for a CAS based system would be a MacMini or even a Macbook and running a high-end music server software like Amarra or Fidelia on top of your iTunes library. Oh, and using iTunes to organise and keep your music library, is just a totally awesome and gorgeous way to do so ! Wink

by sflam Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:28 pm

wongkn wrote:

A 2.5" HDD sounds worse than a 3.5" HDD simply because the 2.5" is powered off the USB cable.

i think the current debate is over the sound quality of solid-state memory vs hard-disk drives.

personally i hv not heard any diff in sound quality between a usb-powered hdd and a hdd with its own power supply.

by Mikapoh Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:47 pm

Thanks guys for the thoughts and thank you Jinjang guy for insight of CAS based system. This option looks very attractive and tempting. That's also the reason I jumped into this thread to expose more.

WongKN, suddenly I am in dilemma again....

by **VS126** Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:48 pm

At least somebody (MF) with some knowledge is talking.

If you are still upgrading yr CD player, then good luck to you.

And if you still feels that those high end CD players with USB inputs like Bladelius, Naim or Ayre etc can do HiRez, look again. Most can output 16/44.1 only or best 24/96. Or the highly reviewed Audiolab which can only do 24/96 thru their 32 bit sabre chip.

You can never go wrong with laptop as transport.

IT CAN DO A BETTER JOB THAN CD PLAYERS and much more and it is much easier to set up than you might think.

The moment you purchase a new CD Player, it is already obsolete.

But we still need people like Wong/Mikapoh to buy new CD player and CDs to keep the industry floating.

Cheers.

by Mikapoh Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:57 pm

VS126 wrote:

But we still need people like Wong/Mikapoh to buy new CD player and CDs to keep the industry floating.

Cheers.

Well, I believe 2 persons cannot impact as far as CD market is concerned, can we? It makes me also wonder why they are still available around the globe....

by **VS126** Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:00 pm

WongKN wrote:

A 2.5" HDD sounds worse than a 3.5" HDD simply because the 2.5" is powered off the USB cable.

.

The trend is going for smaller diameter harddisk like the 1.8" samsung.

Smaller diameter disc have less vibration when spinning.

by **VS126** Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:11 pm

Mikapoh wrote:
It makes me also wonder why they are still available around the globe....

Wonder more.

If I tell you, you might not be happy and some INSECURE 2pluser will give me another minus reputation again.

Save yr money or spend it on speaker upgrade.

Cheers

by sflam Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:36 pm

vs126 wrote:

The trend is going for smaller diameter harddisk like the 1.8" samsung.

Smaller diameter disc have less vibration when spinning.

solid-state memory has no moving/spinning parts and does not vibrate. that's why many now prefer solid-state memory.

by sflam Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:43 pm

vs126 wrote:

And if you still feels that those high end CD players with USB inputs like Bladelius, Naim or Ayre etc can do HiRez, look again. Most can output 16/44.1 only or best 24/96.

the bladelius embla has two usb inputs. the usb input for the laptop accepts 48Khz max; however the other usb input for an external hdd (with own power supply) accepts up to 32bit/192kHz.l

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:19 pm

Mikapoh, considering a wide variety of options is a prudent thing to do. What mugen has done is to give you the advantages of a CAS. Notice all his points has to do with future-proofing and also convenience. There are no arguements against those points. You yourself and yourself only can make the decision. I was actually about to ask you why you decided to go for a CDP because it happens that I share the same opinion as sflam, that a DAC is the more appropriate way to go at the moment. And the price of the Naim CD player should get you some pretty good DACs. But I was going to just ask you for your opinions and your reasoning in order to understand a bit into the thoughts in your mind when you decide to go for the CD player. But you did ask a worthwhile question. Why do companies like Mark Levinson even bother to offer a CD/SACD player ?

A mac-mini is something worth considering as someone told me just yesterday. For his case, he bought one for use as a music server and after explaning his rationale to me, it makes sense. Apparently the current generation of mac-mini's are now replaced by a new model. So there seems to be dealers who are willing to let go for a good price (I was told something like 1.8k). However you have to be ready to dabble into the operation system. The Apple OS is not exactly like Windows I need to highlight to you. Of course it is hardly anywhere near as un-secure. Someone like mugen is versed with Mac. But if you are just an end-user, well, you might not comprehend how complex computers can be if you really want to get into its insides (of course you might be in the I/T line as well). So it is something to be aware of. So don't underestimate the complexity of what you might need to do just because it seems so simple to click a few buttons here and there.

Now I wonder what happens to the other forumers who have been talking about CDs. It is sad when open sharing of opinions are side-tracked but let's get back to the main topic of this thread.

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:22 pm

sflam,

Solid-state memories as I understand it has its own set of perculiar characteristics as well. So whether it makes for better or worse as music file storage, you probably should study the topic a bit further before making a firm conclusion. If I have the time, I will ask my colleague, a computer hardware engineer about the drawbacks of solid-state memory and then I can share what he tells me with you. But first I need to be able to meet him as we are always never in the office. I will PM him if I can do that.

by mugenfoo Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:14 pm

Honestly, today, it really doesn't make any sense to be spending money on some average fancy branded "modern" CD Player or Transport.

My reasons (but do feel free to differ):

1) CD players today no longer use those "built like a tank" CD mechanisms like the old CDM-XX and TEAC VRDS drives of yesteryear. But they are forced to cheap-out (not their fault since the industry has shifted this way already) and use some OEM CD-Rom based mechanism as the reader. And we all know how much such CD-rom drives are selling in Low Yat plaza for. To pay 100x the usual price is daylight robbery.

2) CD players, no matter how fancy the electronics, cannot out-do a standard Intel Core-duo/quad/N CPU with Godzillions of computing power that can twist & turn & do just about anything to the digital audio information. Just take a look at the Amarra & Fidelia players (maybe someone who's familiar with Windoze based players can share their experiences also). Plenty of options to choose like Dithering, re-sample, upsample, downsample, sidesample, insample, outsample, etc etc etc. If you wanted to expect that from a CD player, the mfg would probably charge you a premium of $10K just so that it can perhaps do 5% of what a software based player can do.

3) Again, the average CD player as a consumer device is totally outshadowed by a CAS system these days. There isn't anything that a CD player does that a CAS cannot do. (except for SACD since Sony/Philips are so anal about DRM and all that crap). But a CAS can do so much more than a CD player. For example, you could run your Bittorrent while listening to music, so u can get "more music" into your collection (ahem ahem), you could browse the net and also post on hifi4sale.net as well. You could also be fudging some numbers on that Excel sheet for that big presentation tomorrow at work, and numerous other multitasking stuff. Could you use a CD Player to surf the net and search for more songs to download? Could you use an iPodTouch, iPhone or iPad to remote- control and pick and choose what song to play at the simplest whim and fancy? Or how about compiling your very own playlist from your entire music collection? I think not!

Cool

But of course, i am still happily using my CD Transport. I paid too much hard-earned money for it already and therefore in my mind (and i rightly so choose to be 100% narrow minded about it), it has to be the best sounding way to play CDs and therefore at present, no CAS system can ever beat my trusty CD Transport in terms of sound quality (until the CD Transport finally gives up the ghost, amen).
lol!

Even a Bladelius Embla player and that Naim media centre thingy is crazy overpriced... What can these devices do that a CAS cannot?
But this is just IMO lah .... and people still feel good about paying a premium for branded stuff and who's to say they are wrong? This is called "Brand Equity". Razz

by mugenfoo Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:24 pm

http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/fidelia/

http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/index.html

http://jplay.eu/

http://www.foobar2000.org/

http://www.jriver.com/

by DrWho Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:28 pm

One good combined CAS/CDP is Oppo latest BDP-95. It can play 24/192 and can handle most audio format not to mention that it is one of the best BR player as well. Sabre32 DAC. My unit is multi region.

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:32 pm

Mugen, welcome to the narrow minded dinosaur club ! lol!

One topic to open up for discussion.

It cannot be denied the convenience of the computer, especially for control, selection, organisation, etc. How can I when I have made my living off it for so many years ? But then there -are- a school of thought with some firm opinions against using it as a music 'feed'. So how for the new generation audiophile who wants the convenience -and- the sound ?

In the just concluded KLAVS, I noticed the firm emergence of the latest generation of dedicated music servers. Actually it started appearing last year already and I have already sampled one system even before the show. But in the KLAVS I can see and have the good fortune to examine and listen to more such systems in detail. This latest approach typically adds a LAN capability to the music server plus an interface program. They then provide a GUI on a laptop to interface to this program on the music server.

So the music server is controlled by a laptop. But it is the music server which is reading the file, decoding it and feeding it into the DAC. When in play, the laptop is in no way connected to the system. This way, we get all the convenience and power of the laptop in terms of music organisation, selection, etc, with things like playlist and easy ordering of songs and so forth. We also get the advantage much like holding the CD jewel case because the laptop displays the cover, the contents and even the cover notes, etc. So we use the GUI on the laptop to select and compose our playlist and we then remotely (usually via a wireless router) instruct the music server to play. Or we stop and delete a song we don't like, etc. Once we get our favourite song in play, we sit back and enjoy the music.

How the music server gets the actual music file is dependent on the manufacturer. On this system a good friend uses, the music server works off USB connected HDDs or SSDs (like thumbdrives, etc). Another brand new system I saw/heard, located at Level 8 in the KLAVS even allows the laptop to load the song into the server. I.e. the server has enough built in RAM to store at least 1 song. So the audiophile can load the song directly from the console on the laptop into the music server via the wireless LAN and then instruct the server to play the song.

BOTH systems I mention I am sure all of you guys who visited the KLAVS have listened to. And both have gotten high marks as well. If it is to be argued that the laptop is used, this is the way I foresee it to be properly used in the future of digital music, to get the best of both worlds, convenience and flexibility, AND best possible sound quality. I also understand some higher end music servers are also software upgradeable so that it is future proof as well and I think it works better for music server for which the hardware can be more consistently stable than for the DAC.

by sflam Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:48 pm

wongkn,

in the hifi biz, there's an old saying - there're many ways to skin the cat.

the media server is one way, the laptop (mac or window-based) is another, the linn ds is also another way, the bladelius all-in-one package is another way, etc, etc.

in terms of sound quality, i don't think there's a clear winner.

by kwwong Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:18 pm

Interesting topic.
For me it is very simple objective: the computer system able to play music equal or better quality than my modified top loading Sony 338esd. My pass 4 month been doing experiment on it.

I start with a hardware - a transport. After much research I narrow down to just M2Tech Hiface. There is lot of mention about it in 6moon and diyaudio forum, especially a guy called jkenny. In stock, it can produce a decent quality but is still way off the cd player. Supply external power supply improve it little bit, use shunt regulator futher improve it but still fall short.

Finally open it up and using 2 shunt regulators purchased from Twisted Pear and 2 other voltage regulators to supply power to different chips, I would say it is very close to cd player quality when playing cd direct rip from computer, and very refine when play Hi Res file download from Internet.

By the way, M2Tech have a similar product with external shunt power supply but is selling for a whopping rm3k, it is call HiFace Evo. If you are interested in similar product, you should also look at Audiophilleo 1 or 2. It got quite a good review.

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