Live Music

I was pondering the point of live music enjoyment and how it relates to this hobby of ours. Of course, i'm making a basic assumption that all of us are music lovers first and audiophiles second, although personally I hesitate to even place myself in the latter category.

For me, live concerts, gigs and festivals have shaped what I expect music to sound like, and have informed what I'm chasing for in my hi fi set up. Having been on both sides of the fence in terms of performer and audience, there are indelible marks in my aural habits that shape the kind of listener I am.

These days, I don't attend as many live acts as I used to, but it's a question that's always nagged at me: how many audiophiles actually get out of their listening rooms and into gig?

For my self there is few places that i prefer to enjoy live music -

KL - No Black Tie , Alexis Bistro , Philharmonic Hall,KLCC
Penang - G Spot (G Hotel) , Lobby Lounge Hard Rock Hotel Penang
Ipoh - Own stereo ( No place to enjoy live jazz/blues music )

Hi Fizi,

How often do you make it out to see gigs? The Hard Rock in Penang features Ray Rozel and the Jazz Hats, arguably one of the best live acts in Malaysia at the moment. They're currently playing at the G Hotel.

Every year I've been going to Miri in Sarawak for the annual jazz festival, and besides that whenever there's something interesting at the usual places you mentioned.

I really miss the live music scene right on my doorstep literally, when I was living overseas.

Sometimes, I simply get curious whenever I hear hifi kaki talking about realism and accuracy.

hi Jedi...

When im in penang mostly every weekend will enjoy husky voice from Uncle Ray and Jazzhats...before they join as resident band every weekend at HRH Penang they perform at G Hotel....ive never been to sarawak jazz fest but im joining jazz fest in Penang...

Ray and Jazzhats always entertain their crowds at all best,beside that i also enjoy BONGGA BONGGA band and few others....

The advent of the MPO and the concert hall at the KLCC was really a defining moment in the lives of music lovers here. Today, they have started to mix other types of music besides just focusing mostly on classical music (check this new season's calendar) so life is even better.

One of my main issue with live band performance is how they are always miked and often with a far from prestine quality PA system.

An excellent case in point was the concert on musicals held earlier this year by the MPO. Songs like "Music Of The Night" was miked and the difference in 'fidelity' between the vocals which was miked and the accompanying music which of course was live by the MPO really served to illustrate the difference between amplified sound and 'live/real' sound. After a few songs, fortunately the fantastic singing helped to make it easier to accept the lack of fidelity in the vocals.

For some, the ability to play a musical instrument made a lot of difference. An instrument like guitar, piano, or even the violin and wind instruments lets one play a tune on its own and often it can help one appreciate music to a different and equally, if not more satisfying degree. The same can be said of someone who is a dancer.

However, I notice there is one pitfall an audiophile who enjoys regular live music and especially one who is able to play a musical instrument, especially a performer, will easily fall into and that is the tendency to get into a 'holier than thou' or rather 'better than the masses' kind of mentality. As in "I am able to produce music, thus I am superior than you who is only capable to listen to it".

Even seasoned reviewers, e.g. Dick Olsher of Stereophile who plays woodwinds in a philharmonic orchestra, can get such an attitude. Such an attitude IMHO needs to be checked very early and nipped in the bud because it really serves no purposes. It may be true that someone who knows music will probably look for, and value different things in the sound than someone who is more of a pure 'audiophile', but in the end, having such an attitude can easily and quickly be more of a curse than a blessing. The danger is arrogance. As I have always said "being ignorant is not a sin but being ignorant of one's ignorance is indeed the saddest thing that can happen to any honest person".

At the end, the honestly of an any acoustic system comes down to the basic fundamentals.

If a mike'd source (in this case the vocals) are done well (sound reinforcement, the acoustic engineers would call it), it can blend in wonderfully with the natural volumes of the accompanying instruments.
Likewise, if the original venue for the performance was lousy to begin with, it really doesn't matter if its all natural, a mixture of mike'd and natural, or pure electronics; it will just sound bad all the same.

There are many a great recordings of live Rock Concerts & Pop symphonies where everything is miked, and they can be wonderfully reproduced as long as the recording venue was conducive enough, and the recording engineer didn't make a mess of the capturing process as well.

The topic of a proper acoustic environment for both life performance and playback is extremely complex and would warrant a thread by itself.


On another note:
Enjoying hifi is similar to enjoying the movies (whether at TGV, GSC or one's home AV system). We all know it's "manufactured", but we just revel in the illusion of "realism" and "life-likeness" it can mimick the real thing. But at the very honest level, no one would dispute that hi-fi is still "make believe". The fun (or obsession, for some) is in getting it to "make believe" a bit better here and there, but it will never replace the real thing.

In reality, musicians hardly listen to music compared to an avid fan of the arts - that's a fact, time spent on crafting the art of playing - leaves time for no serious enjoyment of music, juxtaposed to a serious listener.
This is a fact that i noticed - plus the mind is usually lethargic from countless
sound-checks which is almost like a sacred unwanted ritual that must be performed, checking for every nuance of sound on how "they themselves" sound, form the heightened ego state - inevitable, the ability to create/re-create does this to most.

As far as MPO goes - the engineers/microphone set ups really go according to
what the artist want - you can argue theories - but if the performers step out,
there just no music, here's the bang - of lately unlike other venues, the SE
it out of time to look at the "House" sound (what the audience hear) this is not the case with most international venues - where the one in charge of the house sound is completely "the other guy", each time the set ups change on stage (monitors,SB,) the parameters need to be reset at the seating end, this is extremely time consuming, and off lately - i believe its become impossible for MPO to heighten the bar, when their struggling to even break even let alone premiering well known names, wish them luck though.

Nice topic guys! have a nice week.

I too wish that I can go and see live music as much as I used too. The last concert or gig I went to was Wings in Istana Budaya a few months back. The last big concert I went to was in UK for the Glastonbury and Reading festival 11 years back!!!!

Even as a part time musician, I only do gigs once every 6 months or so. Its always jamming in the studio and thats about it.

Nevertheless, HRC is one spot that I would usually go to listen to some live music. I have no particular favourite spot but when I am on my travels, seating the hotel lounge listening to usually jazz and ballad cover bands would do me good as well.

Yes, Miri jazz festival is an annual thing. Pity when I was living in Miri, I did not had the chance to attend due to work commitments.

WongKN: I'm not quite sure where you're going with all the multi-factorial MPO based examples and indistinct but nonetheless subtly veiled caution against musician-based arrogance in the audiophile world, but I do agree, I think, with what you said about the MPO. The miked performances are usually okay, but now and then the balance goes out the door. A lot of it has to do with the venue and the associated acoustics. The politics of the building of the philharmonic eventually caught up with the design of the whole piece during construction and compromises were made, to put it lightly. The boxes sound like shit and there's a only a narrow sweetspot in the main auditorium which is quite good actually. But it lacks desperately when compared to say the Melbourne Concert Hall.

Do audiophiles only attend classical performances then? Are the rest not good enough or simply just too low-brow or only specific events are coveted, like certain Canto-artists at Genting or select events featuring the likes of Roger Wang et al?

It may be of interest to some that there are two very cool acts in Malaysia at the moment, homegrown of course, and I'm sure there are more: Dasha Logan, daughter of Logan of Alleycats fame, and a band called Tempered Mental. Dasha frequently plays around Penang her hometown, and recently played a couple of nights at Meze in Medan Damansara. Tempered simply rock and were interviewed on BFM this morning.

Jedisavant, so where are you going at, regarding whether audiophiles might or might not attend live music, or whether they only attend classical performances or otherwise?

Are you trying to categorise or lump certain types of groups like (e.g. audiophiles /musicphiles /musicians /sound engineers / taxi drivers / bus conductors / tollbooth operators / Plant managers / Tax consultants / low-brow / high-brow / side-brow / under-brow / etc etc etc... ) into some pre-defined bucket?

It was a question, directed to WongKN, as the only reference points provided were for largely classical contexts etc.

Categories exist for everything. A pet peeve of mine is that all too many LP vendors these days don't properly categorise their wares for ease of browsing. However, in deference to your last question, I believe any of the types you mentioned could fall into the first two, being audiophiles and musicphiles, these being the focus of discussion on these boards right?

All hail those who are about to rock.

JediS,

My main point was that basically it is mainly classical concerts that are played truly 'live', in this case, not miked in any form at all. All the non-classical concerts I have attended, be it rock, jazz, pop, or even a simple live band at a hotel lounge, they are all miked to some degree, sometimes everyone is miked, often and practically always the singers are miked. This happens even in a broadway musical. Now the question comes up about the issue of listening 'live'. Are we listening truly to 'live' or to an electronic sound system, usually a BMG or horrors sometimes even PA systems ? If we use 'live' music from this angle as the reference to which to judge the accuracy of our hifi system, are we trying to acheive true 'live' music, or could we even mistakenly make our hifi system sound like a PA system ?!!! On the other hand, those multi-miked pop/rock/etc albums we buy, yes they are miked, but they often miked in a studio, a completely different environment than a concert hall, or hotel lounge, and usually with professional and high quality mikes and monitor speakers (BBC used to use the LS3/5a for some, for e.g.). This is the main point being brought up for discussion and/or debate.

The reference to the fallacy that can hit those of us who knows how to play a musical instrument was just an afterthought, another point brought up for discussion and debate. Some time ago, I think it was last year, another forumer tried to initiate a discussion about this topic here in this forum. So my reference was to that kind of discussion, perhaps a continuation of that thread.

"Truly live..."... I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. So, by your definition, a "Truly live" performance is one that is un-miked. A band's recording was miked in a studio, therefore a studio environment is the true measure of 'proper' sound then?

Isn't it the case that when a performance is miked at a venue, the miking process and subsequent PA system employed would conceivably be matched to the venue, much like how an audiophile would make their room part of the system set up?

I'm really quite at a loss here. One one hand, if listening to a classical performance at a hall, one is as much listening to the hall as much as one is listening to the orchestra, and on the other, at a rock concert, one is as much listening to the PA and work of the engineers as much as what the band intends one to perceive. But by your definition, only acoustic un-miked performances are truly accurate. By gosh, say goodbye to electric guitars, bass lines and the like. And therein lies the indisputable contradiction... by your own admission a studio performance is miked, therefore the voice imprinted in your favourite recording has been tainted.... by the damn mike and the mixing that went into producing the final cut.

On yet another hand, let there be Rock always.

Amen.

Small venues also lend their own sound. Let's discover a few, like Fillmore East, Ronny Scot's.... etc etc etc and our own No Black Tie and sometimes Alexis on a good night.

Actually, i would think that "live" means its a performance before an audience and everything is played in realtime (except for lip-syncing frauds like Milli Vanilli), versus a studio session where the sound wizards and artists are free to dub, overdub, multi-track, mix, etc to compose a "final-product" in batches and re-takes.
Best example, Enya.

live music from good entertainer is always the best....

p/s - dasha logan not bad huh the aura from late Loga in her soul

Hi,

You may want to categorize live performances (musicians &/or singers performing in real time in front of an audience and not done in parts in a studio) into:

1) musicians playing only acoustic instruments and if singing is required, a choir is employed to match the volume of the orchestra, no mikes used.

2) musicians playing mainly acoustic instruments and only vocalist & soloist musician is miked and heard mostly over loudspeakers, the rest of the music is heard direct from instruments.

3) live musicians' sound and singer's voice all miked and sound mostly heard over loudspeakers

The 'recording' of all the above is another story, whether using only 2 mikes or 50 mikes in the case of (1). As KN Wong said, even the sound of some live performance of (2) may be poorly rendered. All recordings require mikes (in some form - electric guitars as in-built transducers) but need not go through the full PA system chain, as the signals are recorded right after the pre-amplifier stage, ie. independent of the live venue's power amp & speakers.

If a live venue has poor power amp & speakers, poor acoustics setup (in the case of very large venue where there are so many loudspeakers used and they are space so far apart, the signals to each speaker is time-delayed in order to solve feedback & echo issues and to project the 'first sound' as coming from the stage), the recording (and mixing) of it may sound 'better' than what the live audience hear. Miking acoustic instruments is hard as the mike also 'hear' the adjacent musicians' sound, unlike electronic instruments like keyboards/guitar/digital drums whose output (to recorder) is unaffected by other musicians sound ....... but may sound unrealistically clear after recording - imho only.

Of course a recording of a iive event would sound different to the event.

But the point of the question still is, how many audiophiles go to live events, irrespective of miking or tubing or slipping or sliding?

To me, going to a gig or concert or a 'live' show is more about the 'show'. Show meaning the performance of the artist in which I do grant that a bad sound system will have negative effect on the performance. Nevertheless, a good performer would usually be able to contain that shortcoming by good interaction with audience.



I mean, what do you expect if you go to an open air gig or concert? Put aside the SQ and just jump into the mosh pit.

'Live' to me is as simple as the artist singing or playing the music in front of me. Miked or no miked, so be it. I like to see how the musicians especially the drummers keep the tempo alive and precise. Most of the time, I do not really pay attention to the singers. Its the musicians behind the scene that I am interested in.

Even when I go to a broadway show, my eyes will usually be on the musicians playing the background music.

And of course, I go to gigs and concerts to headbang woooohhhhooo.

I missed the Loudness concert the other day. What a pity.

Have to start jamming again after Raya.

elderly audiophiles not really towards live performance xpecially in club or pub..but the crowds in penang and KL is different a bit,more open minded...

sometimes during chit chat during live performance or concert,most of them not really into hifi system for them just a mini compo will do to enjoy the groove...i also show them picture of audiophile set up to poisoned them into these hobby

Lets also look at the recording of the "live" performance, ie the quality of the mike used, the amplifiers used by the electrical instrument and such. This all depends on what available and some musician will use the best available (if they are rich enough). Therefore studio performance is always used as a reference point as there is where a "standard" can be achieve as good studio will try to filled its equipment list with the best it can afford. Musician can always "borrow, hire and whatever" to get the best intrument for 1 specific recording session while this cannot be done for touring(unless they are rich enough). In multiple halls, stadiums, pubs and etc where "live" performance is done, its mainly to interact with supporters of the music suppliers and artist.

Of course, the "live" feeling is always good for the atmosphere (where this cannot be done with HIFI) where a whole crowd cheers the performance or silently listen to a jazz set. The other part of "live" is how the technician try to give the venue its best "sound" so that the performer can be at their "best".

But end of the day, studio recording is always a "reference point" but of course some artist like to "record" in "live" gig, but not that many take that path as they also know the uncontrollable portion where they cannot "retake" the same portion over and over again....

Talking about the 'live' recordings on CD (not DVD concerts), the ones that I really like and impressed with their recording:



1. Metallica - Cunning Stunts and S&M Live

2. NOFX - I Think They Suck Live and I Think They Still Suck Live



The second band, what they did was basically brought their whole recording studio equipment into the gig venue and even coded ti in HDCD !!

Ah, if it is the issue of whether one attends live concerts, then I think it is entirely up to the preference of the individual. I do not like attending 'just any' concert because I find that they often turn the volume of the sound system way up, often until the poor amplifier clips. Depending on one's financial ability and more importantly, sheer LUCK, one might get dumped right in front of a large speaker. And there goes one's hearing, perhaps permanently damaged.

I am one where given a choice, I prefer to listen to a piece of music played live vs recorded. Again, that is -my- preference. I.e. if I can, I would like to listen to my favourite classical pieces, or pop or jazz singers, live. My opinion is that performing live in front of an appreciative audience somehow pumps their adrenalin up. And consequently, eventhough sometimes they make mistakes, their performance are more spontaneous, more spirited. If the audience reciprocates, then they often perform their hearts out. The 'Bravo Broadway' concert recently was a good example. By the time the lady bravely took on 'Phantom Of the Opera' (the song itself) and handled the climactic ending with ease, the whole audience were cheering, and eventhough it was not a tradition here, many were giving her a standing ovation. This encouraged the whole team (3 of tem) to deliver even more spirited performance during the encore segment. They played the ENTIRE encore segment because we all couldn't stop clapping. In the end, they simply told us "we sang every song we have in our reprotiere we prepared for tonight so we HAVE to bid farewell and we hope everyone have enjoyed tonight as much as we have" !

So I am rather like the person who said he attend a live performance for the music and thus I personally attend a live performance mainly for the music. Perhaps it is my fault for trying to tie in the experience or intention of attending a live performance, to our hobby but in the end, remember this forum's name -do- start with the world "HiFi".

If we want to split hairs, it -is- true that NOT ALL non classical live performance are miked. I still remember my experience wandering the streets of New Orleans Louisiana in my younger days and experiencing their legendary street performers. Most of the them were not miked. One interesting thing that struck me then was how different the overall ambience and tonal balance of the sound was when the band plays in the open air (as street performers goes, they occupy a square or a park and play for 'donations'). So the point by another forumer that a studio recording by necessity forms a reference point for SQ is also true because that is what we get to buy - albums recorded in the studio, which often bears no resemblence to those live performance we get to experience. Certainly the Alan Tam concert I attended many years ago bored absolute NO resemblence to any of his commercial albums, and not even very near to any of his concert DVDs or Blu-Rays. I think different venue, different PA system.

If one is around long enough in this forum, then I believe one will know that it is the general opinion, certainly -my- opinion, that regardless of the SQ and how near or far our own hifi is from it, the experience of a live performance is something unique and something I would personally encourage everyone to experience. But of course if for any reason a person decides not to, that doesn't imply he is any lesser or greater in terms of a music lover. The only cavert is that all types of music are equally worthy of being enjoyed.

The MPO's performance of Beethoven's 5th and 7th Symphonies last night was pretty good. A few audible mistakes in terms of timing and notes, mainly by the brass section and timpani were obvious, one of the violinists even sneezed but it was all good.

I couldn't help but think a hifi presentation would have had more punch in the mids and bass and be overtly bright in most cases with the trebles, but overall the cohesiveness and immediacy makes it all the much better than a recording on whatever system.... For me anyways...

There's the Beethoven solo series coming up soon, meaning Piano Concertos and some Suites. Anybody interested in making a night out of it one day?

David Foster and friends are coming to KL. Visit www.jagtickets.com.my for more info although the website seems to be down today.

I've seen a couple of the DVDs.... His massive ego and all the schmaltzy performances.... Cannot than lar.... Whitesnake coming October....

Ya lah. David is all glitzy and full of flare.

I love the band backing him up though.



Here is the detail:



Tickets to the show can be purchased at www.jagtickets.com.my and from the Enrich Customer Service Centre (KL Central).

Enrich Members paying with a Maybankard Visa Credit or Debit card will be entitled to a 10% early bird discount.

Concert details :

Date: 22 October 2011 (Saturday)
Venue: Putra Indoor Stadium, Bukit Jalil
Ticket prices: RM583, RM483, RM383, RM153 & RM103

Purchase online at www.jagtickets.com.my or from

Enrich Customer Service Centre located at :
Unit DH6, Departure Hall (next to Maybank),
Kuala Lumpur City Air Terminal,
Kuala Lumpur Sentral Station.
50470 Kuala Lumpur

Open on Monday - Friday : 9am - 5pm



Terms and Conditions:

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I'll be waiting for the Petaling St DVD copy.... Only 10 ringgit, blu-ray some more....

JediSavant wrote:I'll be waiting for the Petaling St DVD copy.... Only 10 ringgit, blu-ray some more....

Lets kaw tim RM5 each hehehe. I am not going as well. Clash with my holiday plans.

Eh you chaps, so you will rip the DVD and let me copy to my thumbdrive OK ?

WongKN the Pirate wrote:
Eh you chaps, so you will rip the DVD and let me copy to my thumbdrive OK ?

cetak rompak !!! wait till h4s-admin ban you then u know !!

You want a copy too is it ? So you promise not to tell if we let you copy to your thumbdrive as well ?

After up sampling and running the ripped copy through various high end processors might need a big thumb to store it.... Elhefe and I only deal in high end rips.... So clear you will cry when you watch it, even when wearing ray bans...

JediSavant wrote:After up sampling and running the ripped copy through various high end processors might need a big thumb to store it.... Elhefe and I only deal in high end rips.... So clear you will cry when you watch it, even when wearing ray bans...

Ripped into 4D video file

Ah, the latest in technology, an old dog like me who is behind time in knowledge and technology won't know about. So this new 4D format, I understand we can see in 3D and then touch it also kah, is that right ? Using the latest advanced USB connection I heard ? I give you some of my 'ahem' movies you can upsample, run through your trusty processors and create the 4D copy to pass to me or not ? 'Those' movies in 4D, can see and can touch... WOW !!!!!

4D technology involves audience to be part of the movie as one of the cast. For ahem movies, it also has special features - directing by audience. Yummy.