HT/AV focus for next H4S event ?

by carz Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:15 pm

wongKN wrote:

"For e.g. during the H4S event, admin demonstrated how a mac-mini when booted with windows sounds worse than when booted with Mac-OS. Actually some months ago a friend already 'challenged' me for an answer as he is playing mac mini and he has already found this unexpected 'phenomenon'. Answers which frankly speaking I don't have. "

Could it be because the Windows was not optimised for audio. You need to turned off all unneccessary services, tweak the drivers ...etc Also different version of windows sound different. Perhaps even 32 bit and 64bit windows will sound different. Maybe VS123 can comment on this.

Perhaps the next meeting you could organise a shootout between a fully optimised MAC vs Windows. Gotta make sure you use the same interface, i.e SPIDF or USB. Maybe VS123 can help in this.

by car o scope Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:20 pm

carz wrote:Maybe VS123 can comment on this.

Perhaps the next meeting you could organise a shootout between a fully optimised MAC vs Windows. Gotta make sure you use the same interface, i.e SPIDF or USB. Maybe VS123 can help in this.

Erm... Sorry. What's VS123? Another software ah? Very cuntfused.

by tycham Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:29 pm

car o scope wrote:
Erm... Sorry. What's VS123? Another software ah? Very cuntfused.

He meant forum member VS126!

by cyh Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:22 pm

Hey COS,
Last Friday not so satisfied lah, too much talking. Although i welcome new members, maybe when we settle down, can have a better shoot out.. Very Happy

Did Man City came for the Trio audition?

by car o scope Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:53 pm

tycham,

Oh.. Now, I got it. Thanks.

cyh,

Don't worry. There will be lots of chances to come. Last Friday was the day when old timers met again after they missed each other for such a long time. Very Happy

Definitely, they will share some of their nostalgic hi-fi days. Thanks to Mr.W for taking all the troubles to bring his pre+power to Wembley.

Man City? The one who is near Old Trafford wor.. Guess he had auditioned the Trio 2-3 months back. The other member who mentioned about the Trio has yet to show up. Guess he is busy golfing. Smile

When is the Pink Floyd coming out? It's going to be a wallet burner!!

by **WongKN** Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:00 am

All those tricks about 'tweaking windows', shutting down services, kernel streaming, using BitPerfect with iTunes on MAC, etc, are common 'tricks' well known and done by people who are using a computer to feed the DAC. They are done to varying degree of 'severity' because if you shut down too many services for e.g., windows ceases to become unuseable. So if one is using a notebook (for e.g.) purely as the music server, one might be able to do all the tweaks including the extreme ones. But the strongest arguement FOR using a computer to feed a DAC is that it is the most conveniently available source - practically everyone has one nowadays. But for most people the notebook really serves its purpose, i.e. as a GENERAL PURPOSE computer. For others it is even our rice bowl. So there really is a limit to how extreme we can go with all these tweaks and mods because many don't use the notebook -just- for feeding a DAC for e.g. Of course one can buy a notebook SPECIFICALLY for driving a DAC, BUT there are camps who believe that a purpose designed music server like the Bryston BDP-1 or MF CliC is a better option for this case (I belong to this camp btw).

What people wants to know is the why and what. I.e. WHY does Mac OS sound better than windows on a Mac-Mini. WHAT specifically causes it. It is like what happens in the commercial or professional I/T world. When a bank's entire ATM network, NATION-wide goes down, the C.I.O. is not really interested in that we re-started the transaction server to reinstate the service. He or she demands to know WHAT HAPPENED and WHY it can happen - the root cause - so that it WILL NOT happen again. Similary, knowing how to do all those tweaking is not sufficient, we want to know why and what. I suppose from the practicality point of view it might be called the 'shiok sendiri' syndrome but knowing the why and what lets us understand the basic principles behind a mod or tweak and tells us what form of the mod or tweak we need to implement and what is the next path. In the professional and commercial environment for e.g, this separates the specialists and the experts from the users and operators.

It is like what JoKi pointed out two week ends ago. Platform for supporting the HDD affects the sound, -eventhough- theory says it shouldn't. WHY and WHAT happened ? JoKi being the professional he is, doesn't try to pretend he knows. And to be honest, none of us there (admin, moderators, Jo himself) knows either. So JoKi experimented with different means of support and this is what he presented on saturday. He did not tell us the mechanics of why it worked but he experimented and he has found differences in support and their effect on sound quality. WHAT exactly happened to cause it to work that way ? He DID tell me before that he postulated it has to do with some sort of vibration isolation, similar to the support mechanics behind speakers and equipments for e.g. But we did discussed about it before but neither he nor I will pretend we know the exact answer. Without the solid knowledge of WHY it works like that, the next step forward needs to be from experimentation again. Thus JoKi will not pretend to be as authoritative with digital as he is with fine tuning equipment placement and support and especially with fine tuning the LS3/5A, which he works from a solid understanding of the physics behind the tuning (as his background gives him firm foundation knowledge on the subject). Jo, I hope I did not do you any disservice in this explanation and I hope you don't mind me using you to try to explain what I am trying to say.

H4S events are organised and controlled by the admin so I am there only to lend my support, along with the 'man' (bassraptor) and others. So I am afraid I cannot organise specific things like suggested (thanks for the suggestion of course). Whoever are willing to participate in our events, please do approach the admin with your suggestion and offer, as I did suggest to some forumers before. We thank you ahead for your valuable support.

However I will admit the admin has been 'hinting' to me that I should 'run' the next event, which I am still considering. It looked like a lot of work and I am a lazy barger ! Laughing

If I do, I will -quite definite- NOT do another digital event. Admin suggested that I present the next round for e.g. and I would think a simple, very basic presentation on how to 'play' digital (e.g. what can be used to feed a DAC like what I am doing with the NSAG) would not be of much interest to H4S at large because most people probably knows what is needed to know. Plus a lot more. Add to that, I really think the admin and JoKi did a superb job at the event and covered the salient points of CAS already so there is nothing much I can add.

If I am to do the next event, I am actually contemplating covering the HT/AV angle, because I think this area is a very attractive area and not enough focus has been given to it. I already know who to invite to do the presentation if it were to happen !! Very Happy

by cyh Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:43 pm

Man City? The one who is near Old Trafford wor.. Guess he had auditioned
the Trio 2-3 months back. The other member who mentioned about the Trio
has yet to show up. Guess he is busy golfing.

Ok, i got this wrong again. Yea, I meant Mr Golf. So he 'Fong Fei Kai'. BTW, need to borrow your Antonio Forcione, for some research Wink

and yea Pink Floyd remasters actually for sale now.

by car o scope Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:45 am

WongKN wrote:If I am to do the next event, I am actually contemplating covering the HT/AV angle, because I think this area is a very attractive area and not enough focus has been given to it. I already know who to invite to do the presentation if it were to happen !!

Fuh yoh... It seems that you can cover a vast area in both Home Theater and Hi-Fi. So powderful. Cool

What sort of presentation that you are suggesting for HT/AV angle IF it is going to take place?

by wingman Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:03 am

WongKN wrote:If I am to do the next event, I am actually contemplating covering the HT/AV angle, because I think this area is a very attractive area and not enough focus has been given to it. I already know who to invite to do the presentation if it were to happen !!

WongKN...

This is one i would not miss....something thats of real interest for me, personally. So a salient advice coming from the HT/AV Guru..je would put me in the path to AV...dom... Shocked

And yes...you should.

cheers Very Happy

by wingman Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:05 am

[quote="wingman"]

WongKN wrote:If I am to do the next event, I am actually contemplating covering the HT/AV angle, because I think this area is a very attractive area and not enough focus has been given to it. I already know who to invite to do the presentation if it were to happen !!

WongKN...

And yes... I would second that.....you should.

This is one i would not miss....something thats of real interest for me, personally. So a salient advice coming from the HT/AV Guru..je would put me in the path to AV...dom... Shocked

cheers

by carz Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:41 am

Wong,

consider having a session to highlight/teach setting up karaoke system with a PC too

by **WongKN** Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:28 pm

WAIT WAIT, I AM NOT a guru in HT/AV. Very Happy

I am saying I will ask 'some people' to give the presentation, e.g. the two taikos in this thread.... (don't pretend, you two know who you are !!! Laughing

). But I am really serious because I think HT/AV is an extremely interesting area and we have talked about how it is unique as it is something shared with the whole family. So we should give it proper focus in this forum. Hifi can often be a so very selfish hobby.

I am only equipped to talk about the very very basics. In multi-channel surround sound now for e.g., we have gone beyond what I have been indulging in; 5.1 is old school and the Marantz SR5005 I bought recently even goes to 9.2. The Cai Qin 'Hai Shang Lang Sau' Blu-Ray I got recently is encoded for 7.2. According to a guru I talked to, he said 7.2 is 2 subwoofers with an extra two rear channel to 'solidify' the rear image so for smaller AV areas, it may not be necessary. However, I often also see people putting an extra -side- speaker in between the front and rear speakers. What configuration is that ?

Then the Marantz owner manuals talks about -front height- speakers, i.e. an extra pair of speakers above the main front speakers that helps to project image height. All these are super cunfusing to newcomers like me and can be even more daunting than hi-res digital !!!!! Laughing

And then we have the issue of 1080p HD and HD Ready and Full HD flat screen TVs, with Plasma, LCD, LED, 3D LED, and projectors which goes beyond 1080p.

This is why I think HT/AV, the basics, is really and truly a long, long overdue area that we in H4S should cover.

And of course as carz points out - Karaoke using a PC. Now that is another interesting area as almost ALL families will have a karaoke star/fan.

I already have two places in mind where this 2nd session can be held. It all depends on what the admin thinks. Perhaps we can have a vote ?

by **htkaki** Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:26 pm

WongKN wrote:
The Cai Qin 'Hai Shang Lang Sau' Blu-Ray I got recently is encoded for 7.2. According to a guru I talked to, he said 7.2 is 2 subwoofers with an extra two rear channel to 'solidify' the rear image so for smaller AV areas, it may not be necessary. However, I often also see people putting an extra -side- speaker in between the front and rear speakers. What configuration is that ?

Then the Marantz owner manuals talks about -front height- speakers, i.e. an extra pair of speakers above the main front speakers that helps to project image height. All these are super cunfusing to newcomers like me and can be even more daunting than hi-res digital !!!!!

This is why I think HT/AV, the basics, is really and truly a long, long overdue area that we in H4S should cover.

And of course as carz points out - Karaoke using a PC. Now that is another interesting area as almost ALL families will have a karaoke star/fan.

I already have two places in mind where this 2nd session can be held. It all depends on what the admin thinks. Perhaps we can have a vote ?

The front height and wide is Audyssey DSX that could be found in some Onkyo, Marantz and Denon avr models.

It is very different from Yamaha's Presence Height. We shall go into that later.

The configuration of side speakers (parallel to LP) is actually surround speakers while the back pair is rear surr as in 7channel setup. However, it is not very effective in a small environment. You need to have a bigger room in order to maximize the full potential of a 7channels setup. I would prefer to go for bipole for my surround instead of going into another pair of surr for my medium room. The goal is to get an enveloping surround sound field.

The dual subs config has been quite an interesting topic of late. More and more HT enthusiasts are going this path for a more even bass response across the room. There are many placements for dual subs. A sub needs to have the correct placement in a room in order to perform at its best. Many still argue that it is omni-directional and placement is not important, which is very wrong.

The recent higher end avr models have this powerful Audyssey XT32 room correction software in it. The best thing is the Sub EQ HT that can calibrate 2 subs independently at 512x resolution, which is the same as the famed SVS AS-EQ1. Other lower end models will only combined both subs as one during the calibration process (sweep tone being send to both subs simultaneously).

HT/AV focus for next H4S event ? Xt3211

More on that later....

by **WongKN** Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:16 pm

And so... you all can clearly see who the real ht/av fanatical 'maniac' is right ? Laughing

Any guesses as to -whom- I will be trying to get as my 'speaker' for the event ? Very Happy

by carz Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:46 pm

Wong,

I suggest you break this thread under a different HT header, so it is easier to search and follow later.

Also another separate thread on Karaoke PC. I suggest that those who used AV amps can use that to drive their Karaoke system.

by **WongKN** Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:17 pm

Thanks for the suggestion and thus this new thread is born. For the moment, I think we can have one single thread as IF the event happens and under my control, I intend to have both things done. Sort of like how the admin did the last one. So we start with HT/AV and then we end wit a special session on karaoke. Perhaps someone can volunteer to give us a rendition of a few songs at that session as well Very Happy

BTW, I am using the Marantz both as AV processor and as karaoke amp. Good value for money eh ? Now that is what I call making full use of my investment. Laughing

by zeebee Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:17 pm

WongKN wrote:And so... you all can clearly see who the real ht/av fanatical 'maniac' is right ? Any guesses as to -whom- I will be trying to get as my 'speaker' for the event ?

Couldn't have second guessed his nom de plume then.. Anyway, another good session to have on an audio topic though some may opine that anything other than stereo as sacrilegious but I beg to differ.

Anyway, Sifu Wong, hope you can convince the speaker to hold the session, hopefully on weekends when I have my monthly migration southwards Very Happy

Cheers..

by **htkaki** Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:35 pm

ZB, never know that you are into HT too. Embarassed

Wong Suk, HF4S community is more towards Hi-Fi. There are a bunch of HT enthusiasts in Lowyat.net.

Nowadays, most avr are 7 channel and higher end models are 9 channels. Some might ask, "What the heck with 9 channels since there are only 7.1 audio in BD?"

This is where the Audyssey DSX comes to work in the form of Front Height / Front Wide or Dolby Pro-Logic IIz comes into play by using the existing 5.1 or 7.1 audio in the BD to form a 'matrix' sound field into the additional channels. To cut it short, here is one of the few articles for your reading :

http://canadahifi.com/index.php/dolby-pro-logic-iiz-and-audyssey-dsx-technologies-explained-and-reviewed/

I had experimented Audyssey DSX; both Front Height and Front Wide. If have to choose, I would prefer Front Wide. Since my front loudspeakers has a very wide soundfield, I managed to position it in such a way that the soundstage is very wide. In this instance, I 'save' on the Front Wide.

The introduction of lossless audio is one of the best thing to happen in HT. I must say that the audio quality really took a big leap forward compares to DVD's lossy audio. It is more prominent when it comes to LFE. In this case, we are referring to ULF (Ultra Low Frequency). Those sub sonic bass is very intoxicating. Hard to put into words unless you experience it yourself (Wong Suk can feel it at his own leisure. Zeebee can also since he has 1 capable of it).

The audio recording has notably improved a lot too in recent years. eg: Just take a look at Taken, The Hurt Locker, Percy Jackson and The Lightning Thief compares to the 'aged' U-571, and Black Hawk Down.

by sflam Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:43 pm

wong kn wrote:

What people wants to know is the why and what. I.e. WHY does Mac OS sound better than windows on a Mac-Mini.

from what i recall, the admin used itunes with windows 7 and itunes with mac os on the mac mini with both os installed in bootcamp.

i think itunes is not the ideal player for windows os. right now, i feel j river v 16 is the best for windows.

what cld be a better 'battle of the os' wld be mac with itunes (without amarra or bit perfect) vs windows 7 with j river v 16.

just becos itunes does not sound good with windows does not mean all those who own windows-based laptops must now dump them and buy macs.

by **WongKN** Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:29 pm

I believe no-one at the event actually thought what you suggested, thate macs are the only way to do CAS, just that o/s makes a difference. I tend to look at it from a different angle, but that is just a habit from my job.

by sflam Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:53 am

yup

os makes a difference. different versions of the os also make a difference. different music players also make a difference. different add-ons (like bit perfect that was demoed that day) also make a difference.
at the moment, i dont think mac os is better than windows or vice versa.

by sflam Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:44 am

carz wrote:

wongKN wrote:

"For e.g. during the H4S event, admin demonstrated how a mac-mini when booted with windows sounds worse than when booted with Mac-OS. Actually some months ago a friend already 'challenged' me for an answer as he is playing mac mini and he has already found this unexpected 'phenomenon'. Answers which frankly speaking I don't have. "

Could it be because the Windows was not optimised for audio. You need to turned off all unneccessary services, tweak the drivers ...etc Also different version of windows sound different. Perhaps even 32 bit and 64bit windows will sound different.

carz, the admin was comparing itunes with windows 7 and itunes with mac os (snow leopard, i believe).

itunes is a mac-designed programme released in 2001 for mac computers and components and it was a few years later that it was modified to work with windows 2000, xp (and newer os).

i think the demo only showed that itunes works better with mac os.

by **elhefe** Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:57 am

I do support AV/HT idea for the next session BUT, I feel that in order for attendees to understand or even better, experience the difference audio codes (DTA MA, TrueHD etc), it needs to be a venue that can offer these features.

Especially if we start to discuss or present 7.2, 9.2 speaker channels, Audyssey etc, it will be better if it can be demonstrated.

htkaki did a good explanation in his 2 posts above but reading alone can be really overwhelming especially for beginners. I personally would want to experience it.

For subwoofer, I suggest to cover the following:

1. How to choose a suitable model that matches the AV amp we have
2. How to do adjustment on phasing and volume/gain
3. How to choose the right placement

My 2 sen

P/S: If we do in Seremban, maybe can arrange convoy also heheheh.

by **htkaki** Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:44 am

elhefe, there will be a convoy from another forum (not lowyat.net) coming over on this weekend to understand more on HT/AV as well as Hi-Fi. We can always organize one.

Previously, I have my system in 9.2 config; Audyssey DSX (Front Height and Front Wide) being employed. I had demoed it to many of the lowyat.net (lyn) members to let them understand better of the DSX capability and for them to decide which path to go.

Unfortunately, I do not have rear surround (as in 7.1 system). Since my room and LP is not ideal for it, I drop the idea. Also, I used to have 7.1 systems in my own HT room at home. To be honest, the additional surr channel does not really provide a big jump in surr ambiance that I hoped for.

I opted for the more 'cost effective and efficient' bipole surround speakers. Less taxing on the amp and wallet. Yet, it could provide good surr soundfield if you get the correct placement.

The subwoofer is another interesting topic. There are 2 diff designs as many already aware of it. The sealed sub and the ported sub. Then, there is adjustment of phase and crossover (XO). Today new gen avrs are really 'intelligent'. Most of the avrs in the market can detect the phase of the sub during its room acoustic calibration process be it YPAO, Advanced MCACC, ARC, and Audyssey unlike yesteryears avr. The XO is quite subjective and one needs to know which XO to set. More on that later. Quite lengthy (For a second, I think I am like Wong Suk for the extra long winding post)

The volume/gain is quite simple and straightforward actually. It will be 'compensated' or 'adjusted' during the calibration process.

As for the right placement, this will be quite a tricky one to do for a sub. Not easy but worth the effort. One of the effective ways is the 'sub crawl' method. Some of you might have heard of it before.

by **elhefe** Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:03 am

htkaki,

I agree with you with the 7.1 channel. I myself only using 5 speakers but with bipolar rear speakers which my credit card likes them Smile

And yes, subwoofer is a very vast topic which I am really keen to see it being demonstrated. I have been toying around with settings ever since I got into HT.

But my adjustments were always based on whether I like the sound or blend of the subwoofer into the rest of the system. Not because I really understand the reasoning behind it hehehehe. Janji my telinga likes the sound, I am OK.

But I believe understanding how phasing, XO, gains, volume works, it will help people to save time in setting up the sub.

Auto callibration makes it easy but sometimes, it does not provide the coherent sound when you switch between one movie to another.

So, are you offering a demo for H4FS members then? Heheheh.

by carz Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:30 am

sflam wrote:
carz wrote:

wongKN wrote:

"For e.g. during the H4S event, admin demonstrated how a mac-mini when booted with windows sounds worse than when booted with Mac-OS. Actually some months ago a friend already 'challenged' me for an answer as he is playing mac mini and he has already found this unexpected 'phenomenon'. Answers which frankly speaking I don't have. "

Could it be because the Windows was not optimised for audio. You need to turned off all unneccessary services, tweak the drivers ...etc Also different version of windows sound different. Perhaps even 32 bit and 64bit windows will sound different.

carz, the admin was comparing itunes with windows 7 and itunes with mac os (snow leopard, i believe).

itunes is a mac-designed programme released in 2001 for mac computers and components and it was a few years later that it was modified to work with windows 2000, xp (and newer os).

i think the demo only showed that itunes works better with mac os.

Yes, that's what i'm saying; i agree that the test by itself is not conclusive evidence that Mac is better than Windows

by **htkaki** Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:37 am

Sometimes a bad recording also plays a part in the boomy bass. I never like Transformers Revenge of the Fallen for its overly done LFE and its uneven vocals.

We can always have a gathering and demo. I have already hosted many gatherings for the other forums. The 'Wembley' could accommodate about 10 ppl. If there are too many, maybe we can squeeze a bit.

Talking about ULF, it is best to experience it yourself. Many of lyn members do not know how exactly ULF feels even by reading the postings until they actually experience it themselves. Although not really ruler flat curve, it does go down to 10Hz at very much usable output. (beware : poison aheads) Twisted Evil

by **elhefe** Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:43 am

aaaahhh see htkaki, you also agree that it needs to be experienced. To experience is to believe to experience....hehehehe

by **WongKN** Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:24 am

carz wrote:
sflam wrote:
carz wrote:

wongKN wrote:

"For e.g. during the H4S event, admin demonstrated how a mac-mini when booted with windows sounds worse than when booted with Mac-OS. Actually some months ago a friend already 'challenged' me for an answer as he is playing mac mini and he has already found this unexpected 'phenomenon'. Answers which frankly speaking I don't have. "

Could it be because the Windows was not optimised for audio. You need to turned off all unneccessary services, tweak the drivers ...etc Also different version of windows sound different. Perhaps even 32 bit and 64bit windows will sound different.

carz, the admin was comparing itunes with windows 7 and itunes with mac os (snow leopard, i believe).

itunes is a mac-designed programme released in 2001 for mac computers and components and it was a few years later that it was modified to work with windows 2000, xp (and newer os).

i think the demo only showed that itunes works better with mac os.

Yes, that's what i'm saying; i agree that the test by itself is not conclusive evidence that Mac is better than Windows

Hmmm.... the two of you seems to be obsessed with this thing. Laughing

Frankly I am not interested because to me both Windows and Mac OS or even Linux are just general purpose operating systems meant to run on general purpose computers so if I am to go for broke, then I go for a dedicated, specialty music server like the Bryston BDP-1 (which I don't plan to for the foreseeable future).

So there are two instances above where one combination works better than another. But in I/T, the possible combinations are many and like I said, for a professional point of view, I am not interested in which sounded best but rather WHY and WHAT makes a certain combination sound better. That has been my original point actually. So I am not interested in persuing the different combinations to look for differences. If I am to persue this further, I want to dissect the combinations down to their components to try to see if I can find out what is the root cause for the differences. To do that, I really need to call on too many favours from too many friends. I know people who used to work in the Microsoft software lab in U.S., coding device drivers for Windows. But I certainly do not wish to disturb him for this kind of question. There will be occasions where we need each other's help in our job so I always prefer to keep favours for such occasions. Cari makan comes first.

So I approach digital differently from a lot of people, which is why I am not planning to cover digital music playback -IF- I am to do the next event.

by **WongKN** Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:27 am

DEI Elhefe, you still living in the good ole days of HCOC ka ? Convoy pulak !! Those were the days when convoys ends up in mad top-speed >200kph runs across the expressways. Nowadays too old for this kind of things. With age comes sensibility, and self preservation ! Laughing

I wonder....
How many would be willing to drive down to Seremban for an event ?

by **Hi-Fi 4 Sale** Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:04 pm

The previous event was to share a personal journey of getting 80% of the sound for 20% of the effort. Hence, based on convenience and library management, iTunes was the chosen media player software.

Perhaps, in the flurry of activity and my apologies for this, I did not fully explain some of the basics of CAS. iTunes on its own, either in Windows mode or Mac OSX, doesn't output in bit-perfect mode, ie. the bits & bytes forming the audio output stream from iTunes via Windows or Mac OSX is NOT identical to what was ripped from the CD. There is some level of data manipulation going on, the question which is how much and what effect it has on sound quality.

The same iTunes test on Windows and Mac OSX (Scenarios #1 & 2) is to demonstrate the differences in signal handling between these two operating systems. Listeners were asked to empirically decide for themselves which they preferred.

Note that in Windows, to my knowledge, it is currently not possible to output bit-perfect audio via iTunes. It is mainly due to the sample rate converter, which is something necessary because Windows needs to simultaneously output signals with different bit rates and sampling rates (eg. your music & warning sounds, application alerts). See:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Bit-Perfect-playback-Windows-7-x64-iTunes-and-Lynx-AES16-possible
http://www.ayre.com/usb-vista_setup.htm

However, with a bit of changes, most easily and inexpensively via the addition of BitPerfect software, you can get bit-perfect output via iTunes on Mac OSX. That was the whole purpose of Scenario #4.

For a recap of the various scenarios, here it is: http://www.hifi4sale.net/t20078p50-announcement-hi-fi-4-sale-event-2pm-6pm-saturday-17-september-2011-cmy-audio-sunway-giza-mall-kota-damansara#51640

If you are adamant on getting better sound out of Windows, there's a whole lot of other options there, such as running Foobar or JRiver.

The conclusion is...there's no conclusion to this matter out of a single demo. Too many iterations to go through, which will warrant other events to focus specifically on Windows playback using different software (iTunes, Foobar, JRiver). Bear in mind that as you move up the sound quality ladder, tradeoffs may need to be made in terms of library management and user convenience.

by carz Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:17 pm

WongKN,

>>"Hmmm.... the two of you seems to be obsessed with this thing. Laughing

"

No lah, this is not obsession, we are just pointing out that this is a bit misleading. Knowing what combinations is better, like comparing the "best software/MAC OS" vs "Best software/Window OS" vs "best software/Linux OS" and see which sound better help us make better decisions. This is just the gist; of course there are more variables.

>>>I am not interested in which sounded best but rather WHY and WHAT makes a certain combination sound better. <<<

Knowing which combination sound better would be good enough. Drilling down to WHY takes too much time and resources, and is best left left to the HiFi developer who have the time, expertise, R&D bucks. We just follow what they have found out.

by **elhefe** Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:18 pm

WongKN wrote:DEI Elhefe, you still living in the good ole days of HCOC ka ? Convoy pulak !! Those were the days when convoys ends up in mad top-speed >200kph runs across the expressways. Nowadays too old for this kind of things. With age comes sensibility, and self preservation !

I wonder....
How many would be willing to drive down to Seremban for an event ?

Now cannot already hit 200...got HD camera on the highway. Maaaannn the last time I hit 190 on the LPT was during fasting month, to test out the new new car. Can only do for 15 seconds, then slow down. My heart cannot tahan already hahahaha.

To got to Seremban, I would not mine. Can hang out at A&W hehehehe.

by sflam Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:47 pm

wongkn wrote

Hmmm.... the two of you seems to be obsessed with this thing.

it's just that it's better for all those who own windows-based laptops not to feel like they are missing something or not getting the best sound with their gear.

dont forget there are more windows-based laptops sold than macs. so almost 60-70% (or more) of malaysian audiophiles who want to enter cas would do so with windows-based laptops.

let's reassure all these fellas that its ok to use windows and u can get good sound with windows with foobar or j river, etc.

by **WongKN** Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:54 pm

FWIW, I don't think Mac OS is inherent superior to Windows for use as music server. Both are designed for general purpose computing and both runs on general purpose computers. I really hope no-one who was there was actually thinking they should junk their windows computer and switch to a Mac for digital playback. In any case, the admin has also just explained the scenario from his point of view.

by **htkaki** Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:28 am

elhefe wrote:Now cannot already hit 200...got HD camera on the highway. Maaaannn the last time I hit 190 on the LPT was during fasting month, to test out the new new car. Can only do for 15 seconds, then slow down. My heart cannot tahan already hahahaha.

To got to Seremban, I would not mine. Can hang out at A&W hehehehe.

A&W is in the town. Ours is very near to the Seremban toll. Only a km away. So, it is very easy to find and not too far from KL. If one follows speed limit, it is about 35 minutes from Sg Besi toll to our place.

As for foods, there are abundant of restaurants within a minute of walking distance; Halal as well as Chinese restaurants. Can 'tok kok' after the session as well Razz

by **elhefe** Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:52 am

htkaki wrote:
elhefe wrote:Now cannot already hit 200...got HD camera on the highway. Maaaannn the last time I hit 190 on the LPT was during fasting month, to test out the new new car. Can only do for 15 seconds, then slow down. My heart cannot tahan already hahahaha.

To got to Seremban, I would not mine. Can hang out at A&W hehehehe.
A&W is in the town. Ours is very near to the Seremban toll. Only a km away. So, it is very easy to find and not too far from KL. If one follows speed limit, it is about 35 minutes from Sg Besi toll to our place.

As for foods, there are abundant of restaurants within a minute of walking distance; Halal as well as Chinese restaurants. Can 'tok kok' after the session as well

Where is the LIKE button here??? Smile

by **htkaki** Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:25 pm

Hosted a small gathering for the other forum members on last Sat. Lasted for about 5 hours. Mostly on the latest tech in HT as well as the test on ULF and LFE.

by **WongKN** Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:35 pm

Now, THIS is the kind of stuff I would like to do if I am to host the next event. cheers

by **htkaki** Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:21 pm

Normally, I'll let the audience to audition (esp amateur) the difference between lossless audio and lossy audio on a same movie. Then, the difference between a ported sub and a sealed sub in movies and concert as well as the experience of ULF and dual subs' advantage.

by Mikapoh Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:19 pm

Dual subs?? Highly toxic! One experience though, once you get to hear the subs set-up in Maxx Audio, you will go home and try to compare to yours by playing the same chapter. You will then shake your head in disbelief, what the hell....It just make my SVS PC12+ sound so puny!

On the lossless and lossy audio, it depends very much on the original mixing. Don;t be surprised to discover certain bluray SQ is same as dvd or worse eventhough it is untouched format. I have quite a few well-recorded dvd titles with core audio DTS encoded beat the bluray lossless audio hands down. But we can't blame them, not all producers are audiophiles.

by carz Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:22 am

What are the essential bits to set up a Karaoke set with a PC, assuming that you already have an AV amp ? What are the best software, hardware, mixers ....etc. For music you have formats lime WAV, FLAC, MP3. what is the equivalent standards for karaoke ?

by **htkaki** Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:53 pm

Mikapoh wrote:Dual subs?? Highly toxic! One experience though, once you get to hear the subs set-up in Maxx Audio, you will go home and try to compare to yours by playing the same chapter. You will then shake your head in disbelief, what the hell....It just make my SVS PC12+ sound so puny!

On the lossless and lossy audio, it depends very much on the original mixing. Don;t be surprised to discover certain bluray SQ is same as dvd or worse eventhough it is untouched format. I have quite a few well-recorded dvd titles with core audio DTS encoded beat the bluray lossless audio hands down. But we can't blame them, not all producers are audiophiles.

My customer's dual subs (PC13-U & SB13-Plus) beats mine though. He is a very happy man until now.

The
SQ has improved a lot compare to the '1st gen' BD. New movies have
stupendous, jaw-dropping, mind boggling surr effect and not to mention
the foundation shaking LFE (ONLY if you have capable subs).

Those
old movies being 'remastered' into BD is exceptional case. Normally, we
will play a BD. Then, we switch the audio formats to let customer hears
the difference.

anyone can help cars on Karaoke?

by DrWho Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:17 pm

htkaki,
Could you recommend 5 best BD with good LFE for us to test our systems Very Happy

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