Vintage vs. new turntables

by fizi Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:35 am

Hi all..which is better performance interm of sound quality.. Question

Rega P1,2,3 vs or Thorens 124,125,160 (standard arm and cartridge)

Need some input to explore to a new era in analog sound

Any input bout Lenco and Project welcome to

thanks

by cmboy Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:28 am

Go make friends with local vinyl TT kaki, listen to their rigs (vintage or new) and come to your own conclusion which pleases you most.

by **bassraptor** Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:43 am

Vintage enthusiast will swear by their Thorens TD124 or 160 , or Garrard 401 ... but getting one and getting one that works good will cost quite a bit. So if you're starting out, both Rega and Pro-Ject are good ways to go to discover analogue. Going with a P3-24 or RPM5 will assure you of much musical enjoyment ...

by car o scope Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:24 am

Huh?? I have no idea on how a new one will sound like..
Or perhaps, I have no idea what other brands sound like..
I just stick with my old skool CEC TT.. Good enough for me.. Razz

by wabun Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:01 am

vintage table like Thorens TD125 are normally spring suspension type, whereras newer entry level turntable is "hard top" type..personally feel that spring suspension turntable more musical and dynamic, try to avoid the direct drive, as they usually have flat soundstage..if you come to Ipoh, give me a call, I can bring u visit a few kaki who has Thorens, Pink Triangle and Pro-Jet.. you hear the difference yourself..cheers !

by wabun Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:06 am

to add on, I have listen to Pro-Jet ( non suspension) match with Dynavector MC , It is dynamic and musical as well..however, the tweak cost is more than the turntable itself, he use "magic wood, ceramic base with rubber ball, tri-axis table..etc"

by cmboy Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:39 am

bassraptor wrote:Vintage enthusiast will swear by their Thorens TD124 or 160 , or Garrard 401 ... but getting one and getting one that works good will cost quite a bit. So if you're starting out, both Rega and Pro-Ject are good ways to go to discover analogue. Going with a P3-24 or RPM5 will assure you of much musical enjoyment ...

TD160?... poor vintage actually, with a poor arm. The other two don't just "cost quite a bit". They cost A LOT now, unlike 10 years ago when people thought they were junk. I sold my mint Garrard 301 for RM5k last year. Thats only the TT's. The arms?.. They work well with SME 12" arms or at least the 9" model and those won't come cheap or rare in great condition. Forget the vintage, the thread starter may not be prepared for current asking prices. Go Rega P3-24, on offer and currently bang for the buck against its nearest competition.

by **bassraptor** Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:47 am

cmboy: Yes, I know, prices of old Thorens and Garrards have gone sky high. "Quite a bit" was stating it mildly! My recommendation, too, is the P3-24 ... can't beat it for value or pedigree!

by cmboy Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:59 am

bassraptor wrote:cmboy: Yes, I know, prices of old Thorens and Garrards have gone sky high. "Quite a bit" was stating it mildly! My recommendation, too, is the P3-24 ... can't beat it for value or pedigree!

IMHO, The base P3-24 is the best of budget TT. Their real pedigree is the P7 or P9. Their proprietry platter and top RB arms makes all the difference and a clear lead over the lower models. Its to be heard to be believed.

by ryder Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:08 am

For your information the P5 shares the RB700 arm with the P7.

The P3-24 uses the RB301 arm.

The top RB1000 arm is only in the P9.

by cmboy Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:25 am

ryder wrote:For your information the P5 shares the RB700 arm with the P7.
The P3-24 uses the RB301 arm.
The top RB1000 arm is only in the P9.

Yes I'm quite aware but I think I've said somewhere that its obvious the higher the Rega model, the higher the sonic quality. There's distinct differences in the whole TT model itself and is not just limited to the arm alone. Its the motor, the platter, the plinth changes or combination that uplift the sonic quality to another level. Roy Gandy is absolutely a very talented and smart businessman, thats why his trade has been around in this business for 30 years and still going strong, so I'm led to believe.

by fizi Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:11 pm

thanks to all...very good idea and input at least will help to hifi kaki want to explore analog sounding..

Wabun--Tq very much of ur offer,will call u when i going back to ipoh..

by **WongKN** Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:23 pm

Fizi, 1stly, what is yr budget/price-range ?

More importantly, wat is yr plans on getting the music u want. Some types of music r not readily available on LPs.

by wabun Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:57 pm

TD160?... poor vintage actually, with a poor arm. The other two don't just "cost quite a bit". They cost A LOT now, unlike 10 years ago when people thought they were junk. I sold my mint Garrard 301 for RM5k last year. Thats only the TT's. The arms?.. They work well with SME 12" arms or at least the 9" model and those won't come cheap or rare in great condition. Forget the vintage, the thread starter may not be prepared for current asking prices. Go Rega P3-24, on offer and currently bang for the buck against its nearest competition.

Hi CM Boy

Some user said TD160 can beat Linn Sontek if tweak properly..dun jump to conclusion oh..

by azri Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:11 pm

choice of music for vinyl is not limited as many thinks
i found many rock bands vinyl but since im not into it, i just ignore them

by cmboy Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:11 pm

wabun wrote:
Some user said TD160 can beat Linn Sontek if tweak properly..dun jump to conclusion oh..

Its my personal view and nothing indicates its a conclusion.
Anyway, you're entitled to believe any hearsay from anyone else. I've no idea how those Thorens owners have compared it to another LP12, but I hope their judgement was based on a direct A-B test on with same cartridge type, phono stage, amplification and both TT's in top tune. Questionable opinion is for certain if either TT's are badly aligned, setup, compromised in some manner or worst of all compared with entirely different amplification, different times, based on human memory and other parameters that's likely to contribute to questionable or baseless opinion.

by fizi Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:31 pm

WongKN wrote:Fizi, 1stly, what is yr budget/price-range ?

More importantly, wat is yr plans on getting the music u want. Some types of music r not readily available on LPs.

My budget maybe around Rm1.5k...listen more to fast jazz,guitar and r&b too..

See thorens 160 selling around Rm700 maybe a good start for me..thats y need some input either to purchase new or vintage TT

by **WongKN** Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:42 pm

My personal opinion here. For RM700 for that thorens, it means you can put almost a thousand for a new cartridge. I would think you have a good chance of getting better than expected sound if you pair that good catridge even with the Thorens. The good thing is if you are to upgrade the TT later, then a 1k catridge can be carried forward and used with quite a lot better TTs than the Thorens. For catridges around 1k, Benz Micro have a good selection. My personal opinions/preferences of course.

by **bassraptor** Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:50 pm

The question would be, how much refurbishment would a RM700 Thorens need? It might add up ...

by fizi Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:51 pm

WongKN wrote:My personal opinion here. For RM700 for that thorens, it means you can put almost a thousand for a new cartridge. I would think you have a good chance of getting better than expected sound if you pair that good catridge even with the Thorens. The good thing is if you are to upgrade the TT later, then a 1k catridge can be carried forward and used with quite a lot better TTs than the Thorens. For catridges around 1k, Benz Micro have a good selection. My personal opinions/preferences of course.

thanks for the valuable info but i dont think to invest such a lot of money for a hi end catridge..

by fizi Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:53 pm

how about thorens 160 with shure catridge vs rega with audio technica..any comment

by cmboy Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:34 pm

fizi wrote:how about thorens 160 with shure catridge vs rega with audio technica..any comment

Amazingly a TD 160 with a budget MM catridge sounded more musical than a Rega with Benz Micro MC.
Having said that, that was playing same vintage 60's LP which have a huge tonality difference compared with a later pressed LP few decades later. Although the Rega was clearly with better clarity, more finesse and desirable audiophile qualities, the Thorens was clearly more enjoyable by its better presence and involvement. Played an audiophile re-issue and the Rega won hands down in most departments.
What I mean is there's no clear cut of which is better overall. A lot depends on the LP on the platter at that point in time and how capable the TT may present it all. Both have its pitfalls and limitations too subjective to elaborate.

Ok lah Mr Fizi, if you're very interested in the vinyl LP route, go buy one a.s.a.p and start learning the ropes by experiencing and learning all you can thereon. I think most of use go through a learning curve once we own a TT and LP's. The more we discuss it I'm only afraid it'll cause more confusion. I rest my case with immediate effect. Oh well, people here say I jump to conclusions..

p.s. There's such a issue called tonearm and cartridge compliance, meaning a given cartridge should match a given tonearm mass. Its not every cartridge that can match every given tonearm. Disregarding fundamentals as this may lead to disaster. Rega arms are medium mass at 11grams, and Thorens TD 160 arm is heavier mass at 16grams. Go google for further info into this black science.

by tycham Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:21 pm

Which is better? MM or MC? I am also looking at Thorens.

by fizi Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:56 pm

tycham wrote:Which is better? MM or MC? I am also looking at Thorens.

very good question on behalf of me...tq tq

by **WongKN** Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:17 pm

I'm sorry I only have experience with the turntables you listed but not the catridges. My friend's played with Thorens TD150 and TD160 many many years ago. A well set-up Thorens can sound very musical indeed, though not as 'audiophile' as say a modern high-end CD player. The is both the strength and weakness of the Thorens - they play music well where it counts for music lovers - the music has a sense of involvement. You bounce along with the melody of a good song. But try to analyze the music and you will probably find lots of complaints - bass is loose, highs are rolled off, etc. I forgot what catridge my friends used with their Thorens at that time. But the thing is my experience is that within a limit, a very good catridges can make a lesser TT sound better than a better TT with only matching quality level catridge. I.e. the catridge can sometimes overcome the weakness of the TT.

I am currently using a Rega Plannar P2 with the RB250 arm on my 2nd system. However, I am using a Grado TLZ catridge, which new to new, costs a lot more than the Rega. Yet, the combo manages to match reasonably well with the rest of the components - Audio Research pre-power, Apogee speakers. Again if I listen as an 'audiophile', I find lots to complain about the Rega and in fact even my simple Marantz DVD player actually has better hifi qualities than the Rega/Grado. But where it counts - music - the Rega/Grado delivers very well. Again if I am critical, I can hear the low-level rumble due to the limitation of the turntable. The rolled off highs, due to the low-quality captive tonearm cable, and all sorts of limitations. But the Grado still manages to bring the sound level of the Rega P2 up to work reasonably well with the rest of the system. This is the basis for my suggestion of considering the Thorens (bassraptor asked about the cost of refurbishing but I thought you are asking about the one currently offered in the for-sale forum which should be in good condition and no need to refurbish). used with a better catridge.

I am also catering for the upgrade bug. Eventually you will probably start talking about replacing the TT once you get fully bitten by the analogue bug.

by **WongKN** Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:18 pm

About the catridges, generally MC sounds better than MMs. I think it is a property of their construction or something.

by mugenfoo Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:43 pm

MC's supposedly have less "motional inertia" coz the stylus is vibrating a "coil" instead of MM where it has to vibrate a magnet.

Therefore MCs are supposedly to have superior tracking abilities, more accurate & better at extracting that infinitessimmally small sonic detail from the record grooves.

But with modern day lightweight & strong magnets like Neodynium, it seems that high end MMs can hold their own quite well.

As for the electronics portion, a MM stage is inherently superior than an MC stage becoz the MM stage is more just an equaliser whereas the MC stage is actually a low level signal preamp + equaliser. And as with anything electronics, it is always a challenge to work with such small snalog signals and its vulnerabilities to noise contamination, device non-linearity and the like.

So, both got their pros and cons.

by mugenfoo Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:44 pm

so perhaps a good MC cartridge with really really really good phono stage would come up tops compared to MM setups.

Disclaimer: ... i'm just theorising here.

by cmboy Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:13 am

You're only theorizing the cartridge engine which is the lesser part of the equation. More important is the stylus tip itself and how much infomation it can retrieve and translate.
Look at the typical budget Ortofon OM cartridge. Ortofon offers a few different stylus tips and commensurate with price. Its entry level is a conical profile and each step higher offers another sonic quality level. Among the best stylus profile is the Shibata stylus developed for JVC or the European Geiger stylus tip. Each are very unique and counts a huge lot for ultimate or optimum analog extraction. Whatever it is, remember the saying, "the system is only as good as its weakest link." This holds true as there's other components with limiting factors or some incompatibility in the hifi chain that'll limit or even negate the potential of whatever your expensive part you've spent a small fortune on, and didn't perform to highest satisfaction.

by mugenfoo Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:41 am

actually that phrase "the system is only as good as its weakest link." does not hold true for hifi , after much comtemplation.
Here's my argument for the latter:

In Hi-Fi, everything is cumulative, and every stage can be thought of having a bad element to it. So the lesser the "badness", the improvements would affect the entire chain. And some compensations here and there, some compromises there and here.

Think of a hifi system (room included) as being its own Eco-system.

OK, now back to phono stuff .. i admit, i don't know much at all about them.. so ok .. stylus also very the important. Razz

But isn't everything else also ? the Motor, the platter, the tonearm material, geometry, the strands of wire running inside the tonearm, the guru's alignment setup, yaddiyaddiyadda....

Oh there is no end to this !! hahaha Razz

by car o scope Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:30 am

When you have interests, you will learn up fast and get poisoned even fasterer. Razz

by tycham Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:14 am

car o scope wrote:When you have interests, you will learn up fast and get poisoned even fasterer.

When I was young I got no interest in learning. Sleep

Now I am older, got interest also no energy to learn! Sleep

by wabun Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:27 pm

About the catridges, generally MC sounds better than MMs. I think it is a property of their construction or something.

not agree on this. MC sound very alike CD, MM has it own sound..
both has their pro - cons.

by car o scope Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:06 pm

Can differentiate MM and MC just by looking at the outside of a TT?
Teach me... teach me... bounce

by **WongKN** Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:54 pm

wabun wrote:
About the catridges, generally MC sounds better than MMs. I think it is a property of their construction or something.

not agree on this. MC sound very alike CD, MM has it own sound..
both has their pro - cons.

MC sound like CD ? Have you listened to very good MC catridges before ?

by cmboy Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:22 pm

car o scope wrote:Can differentiate MM and MC just by looking at the outside of a TT?
Teach me... teach me...

Teach from bits of comments here n there?...wrong way to learn things. Google and do lots of reading on basics and fundamentals for further understanding. The proper learning curve, not by bits and pieces here and there then qualify yourself as sifu in 12 months?.. certainly not!
Wish every academic student wished with great enthusiasm, on their studies of course. Neutral

by mugenfoo Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:35 am

wabun wrote:
About the catridges, generally MC sounds better than MMs. I think it is a property of their construction or something.

not agree on this. MC sound very alike CD, MM has it own sound..
both has their pro - cons.

What ?!?!!? MC sounds like CD ??

by hazy Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:42 am

ermmm.
im play more 20 years lp .
my experiance ....both the cartiges have contras ,pidigree and spectrum.
for me like both cart. actually depending the song or album is goods recording or not . that y im plays 4 tt and 5 tone ams. is not carzy but im try my ears suitable the song .

im plays once the most recomended mm cart v15mk 5 suitable sme 9 " 3009 improved and long tale .
and my mc cart is zxy sme 3 not "S" 3009 inculuded silicon oil and tatanium arm . is good low mass .

im play with micro seiki with mc cart and thorens 160 fully twaek for mm
cable wiring silver cardas and intercnt 501.
my phon satge jadis jp 200 power supply and ear834p deluxe .

but i have lenco l75 rb 300 silver wiring ...is good aslo both mm/mc recomend
for me TRY ENJOY The source ..and give ....happy

by wingman Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:07 pm

Was on a Akai TT with a GT stylus for a year learning the ropes before i ventured into the upgrade path.

Now with a new Rega P2 with a RB251 arm connected to a Ortofon OM10 MM cart with interchangable tips capability connected via a CA640 phonostage.

Sound wise the Ortofon has better clarity, focused and no pops against the Rega MM cart.

Enjoying every moment when playing my LP's.

Go over to Asia Sound for an audition of the TT's - P1 - P3-24 and play the same LP on the various TT's. You should be able to hear the significant changes. Bet you will be bitten by the TT bug. Speak to Michael if you happen to go over to Asia Sound.

Read this thread as well :

http://www.hifi4sale.net/equipment-discussions-f6/turntable-lovers-please-gather-here-t2708.htm

cheers Very Happy

by sflam Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:12 pm

wabun wrote:
not agree on this. MC sound very alike CD,

wabun, there is a great difference between analogue sound (using MM or MC cartridges) and digital sound.
that is why there has been a huge debate as to whether CD or vinyl sounds better ever since the CD was launched in the 1980s.
there is a vinyl revival now because people are tired of the digital sound.

by wingman Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:22 pm

Both these medium have their individual "SQ" signature and followings.

cheers Very Happy

by hazy Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:34 pm

hey frd.

wabun . i think u shoud be listen ..the real mc cart . ( vdh frog , bmicro ebony , zyx airy , dynavector v ) and u can dicided ...including hi tect setup phono line .

wongkn ... generally yes ..mc more proprely build ..sometime ( bisness talk )
but the sound depends somebody ears . example MM vs MC forum u can check
fanatic mc cart from german coming back to mm sound and delcare MM is the pure analog sound and pure golden era 60' ( shure v15 and grado statement ) ....tq

by hazy Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:39 pm

hazy wrote:ermmm.
im play more 20 years lp .
my experiance ....both the cartiges have contras ,pidigree and spectrum.
for me like both cart. actually depending the song or album is goods recording or not . that y im plays 4 tt and 5 tone ams. is not carzy but im try my ears suitable the song .

im plays once the most recomended mm cart v15mk 5 suitable sme 9 " 3009 improved and long tale .
and my mc cart is zyx sme 3 not "S" 3009 inculuded silicon oil and tatanium arm . is good low mass .

im play with micro seiki with mc cart and thorens 160 fully twaek for mm
cable wiring silver cardas and intercnt 501.
my phon satge jadis jp 200 power supply and ear834p deluxe .

but i have lenco l75 rb 300 silver wiring ...is good aslo both mm/mc recomended
for me TRY ENJOY The source ..and give ....happy

by mugenfoo Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:28 pm

try going thru 4 cartridges in 6 months & doing alignments own-self ... surefire way to get up to speed on TTs.

Moving magnet, moving coil, moving iron, all swap-align-listen-swap-align-listen until gila.

Even if eye no need specs before but by the time finish sure will need spectacles at the end.

by hazy Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:33 pm

no lah bro ....i saw people more then that .....everything he swappp ma.
engineering , lawyer , doctor . everything he joint ma. tak gila pon...
he like bla bla sana ... bla bla sini ....
but he maby another human specis lah.....hobby .. cheers

by bimmerman Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:47 pm

hazy wrote:no lah bro ....i saw people more then that .....everything he swappp ma.
engineering , lawyer , doctor . everything he joint ma. tak gila pon...
he like bla bla sana ... bla bla sini ....
but he maby another human specis lah.....hobby ..

I read and I read and I read again and every time the message seems more abstract than the last.

Perhaps a new genre of literary genius is in the making here.

A genre I call "Incomprehensibillificationalizm"

by **WongKN** Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:50 pm

Give him a chance. I think his english is not that strong but we have to give him credit for trying his best. I think he is literally translating from malay to english verbatim including the grammar/sentence structure and the confusion is because the malay grammar and sentence structure (like chinese, japanese, etc) is somewhat different from that of english. When I interpret the sentences in terms of malay, I find them quite comprehensible.

by hazy Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:35 am

bimmerman wrote:
hazy wrote:no lah bro ....i saw people more then that .....everything he swappp ma.
engineering , lawyer , doctor . everything he joint ma. tak gila pon...
he like bla bla sana ... bla bla sini ....
but he maby another human specis lah.....hobby ..

I read and I read and I read again and every time the message seems more abstract than the last.

Perhaps a new genre of literary genius is in the making here.

A genre I call "Incomprehensibillificationalizm"

bimmer thank , i abstract for some person bro .....u donno ?
i think u know ma....i call anythingsibilificationalizm ...kehkehkeh read ..read read
mr wong satu malaysia maaa ...tarak faham lagi ka....( lahesa kebundangan kito cina hisame makonyo kitawe juo ) is strong pure malay grammer.. Wink

by bimmerman Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:13 am

kok loyo ko nyarang srang labah labah kanah labam bistoi, nyan ko maduhannya. cis bedebah hang jebat nyan ko manisan ujuong ujuong magahan santubhong. rega planar 3 amput krotoh ngak patuh P3-24 puternya puter nhyaris 34 rpm. Nyoroshotnya rega. Cis bedebah jebat! drunken

Who can argue with that?

by hazy Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:47 am

bimmerman wrote:kok loyo ko nyarang srang labah labah kanah labam bistoi, nyan ko maduhannya. cis bedebah hang jebat nyan ko manisan ujuong ujuong magahan santubhong. rega planar 3 amput krotoh ngak patuh P3-24 puternya puter nhyaris 34 rpm. Nyoroshotnya rega. Cis bedebah jebat!

Who can argue with that?

i know.....mr wong or mr mugen
mr wongkn this not tutorial english forum ma. jeolous kapo

loh kok sameki keponakkannya.

gueki halusi citesanluu

kek nyarang lawangi karo
karo semua nik kebudagan kapo . udahi lago udahi ngasok ,kepudintenan
kemuning gua , udahilah mato silok semuonya laro.
kwek kito bangso laro
gusti agung maha kuasa knraton karo wajibkinyo

cis . kraton luki sam gue , nyapoh dada upongi mato
ingaki gus gusnya po .

tiui , igantki igantki kepundengan nyo.aaarggggggg

what u pay what u listen lah ....samo samo . What a Face

by Sponsored content