Turntable lovers - Please Gather Here!

actually i was considering a something along the lines of a P3-24 .. but after some discussion with another hi-hi kaki friend of mine who knows my system (u know who u are) , he say that if i get P3-24, i would be in for some eventual dissapointments. So I am back in a catch-22 situation coz i really cannot justify spending so much more for a higher-end TT coz i really got NO LPs in my collection at all. (Except for one Jeniffer Warnes LP just main main only). Furthermore the music types that i listen to are readily available either on CD or on " www.thepiratebay.org " , as opposed to specialist hifi shops that sell LPs.

I remember reading some posts few days back in whathifi forum and a guy actually in same situation as yours. He said he will purchase a low end TT and phono preamp and upgrade only the phono preamp later as this will give significant result as oppose to buy a higher end TT.

I don't know how true is that but you might wana check that out.

I think I need to send my old skool CEC to repair already.
Something is wrong with it. It is a semi-auto type TT.

When the it starts to turn, there will be a pop sound..
When it stops, the pop sound is even louder...

Hi mugenfoo,

I believe everybody has their own opinions, and I am not sure about your friend's view when he mentioned you will be disappointed when you get the P3-24. Everybody's expectations will vary depending on the quality of components that they own or have listened to, and I expect your friend who advised about your eventual disappointment with the P3-24 in the event you end up with one must have listened to some high-end TTs. In fact, I have an experienced friend who owns a TT system for many years who listens solely to LP advised me to get the P3-24 although I have decided to go with the P5. Of course those who own the P7 would say I would be disappointed with the P5 if I happen to end up with it, or those who own the P9 would eventually say the same with the P7, if you get my point.

I don't know too much about other turntables in the market but from what I was told the prices of Rega turntables here are value for money and worthwhile to be considered especially for newbies.

For the record, I currently do not own a single LP but have 5 pieces on the way, bought from Ebay. I have a Denon DL-103 cartridge on the way from Germany.

Just food for thought.

ryder wrote:Hi mugenfoo,
I don't know too much about other turntables in the market but from what I was told the prices of Rega turntables here are value for money and worthwhile to be considered especially for newbies.
For the record, I currently do not own a single LP but have 5 pieces on the way, bought from Ebay. I have a Denon DL-103 cartridge on the way from Germany.
Just food for thought.

That means you ARE or have to buy a TT soon...hehehe! Your mind is made up I reckon.
Funny no-one mention Linn Sondek. I could think listening to a well setup Linn may sway your opinions about Rega, (I mean the P5 and above). Trouble is a new Linn is way way silly money and not for anyone with a tight budget.

I am sure some here have heard or seen the Sondek LP12.

The Sondek LP12 is very famous indeed and then the prices, even for a used unit, went up until it is very expensive.
There are a few which appeared in the For Sale area previously...

If there is a chance to listen to the Sondek, I will not hesitate of course...

car o scope wrote:I am sure some here have heard or seen the Sondek LP12.
There are a few which appeared in the For Sale area previously...

Yup, many have seen them for sale but no takers, which I'm assuming many will find it difficult to fork out the asking price or whatever personal justification. Its not easy to make this TT sing and very careful calibration is required to make it sing. The LP12 manual is easily available for free download, and if anyone doesn't understand half of what its saying, don't consider buying a LP12. Moreover all parts have to be imported in, available on Ebay or UK dealers, considering its not represented here, like Rega or Pro-Ject.

Alex: I'm really sorry if we've all hijacked or derailed your topic but who knows that this thread may turn informative for TT enthusiasm.

The LP12 is not that difficult to maintain. All talk about setting it up and calibrating it to fully enjoy it is overblown.

It is indeed a good TT and once set up properly is good for many years of fine listening unless you transport it here and there.

That said, the price asked of it is too much. RM4k to RM5k for a 20 yr old TT is hard to justify when you can get a new Rega P5 for that price.

Then again... it is still an LP12. If you have the moolah... why not?

RobA4 wrote:The LP12 is not that difficult to maintain. All talk about setting it up and calibrating it to fully enjoy it is overblown.
It is indeed a good TT and once set up properly is good for many years of fine listening unless you transport it here and there.

Yes, its NOT difficult if you're experienced, and have intimate knowledge on this marque. Its seems overblown, simply because theres so much talk about it and its only now that owners fail to realize the importance of it, realize there's more to it that can uplift the potential sonic quality to greater heights with better amplification. There's so much talk, even Linn have its own forum and many are discovering new things quickly on internet discussion. 10 years ago this wasn't possible and many are stuck with limited knowledge from dealer or some hearsay. LP12 is quite a precision transcription table and as with any precision machinery, any owner is expected to go by the book for optimum performance. Unless there's someone who's insistent on living with compromise as-is, I've nothing to comment on that.
Nope...I'm no Linn fanatic, nor dealer nor with commercial intent. Its just my personal POV.

There's so much discussion on Rega too which many thought its also a dead duck with no improvement or upgrade that'll lift the sonics. Its also through the internet that there's many 3rd upgrade parts available that really work. Many TT users also took the phono stage for granted, but its proven simple mods or external ones could be superior to those in built-in ones and the owner does realise benefit never heard before.

honestly, i think the LP12 is too over-rated already. Just like the LS3/5a. It has achieved some kind of "cult status" that has far supersceded its merits... Of course, this is just IMO.

Today, had a listen to some RM100K turntable and my ears got seriously poisoned already. So much so that i know i WONT even bother considering to spend such an obscene amount of cash for one piece of equipment.

So ... back to planet earth, i'm still undecided on the TT purchase, and at what appropriate price point.

Maybe i'll just allocate the money to buy a set of DEFI or HKS meters instead for the car dashboard instead. More eye candy ! hahahaha.

Yes, I've gone way off the tangent here. But it keeps the thread interesting , wouldn't u agree ?

Mugenfoo: Wait till you own a good LP12, your views may change. I've said somewhere else I'll not fanatical about it all nor defend it against any criticism merely because I happen to own one. When credit is due, I'd give due credit for its no fluke its been around for 30 years even despite the digital age. For one its a timeless classic and some unique sonic qualities not apparent with its nearest competition. Its perhaps I may equate it to the durian fruit...an acquired taste, no comparison to the LS3/5a which draw a thin line between a collectible and an amazing discovery in recent times inherited with a checkered manufacturing history. LP12 potential never depended on hype for its popularity past 3 decades (as with Rega), but the LS3/5a practically parasited on hype. Without the constant hype that speaker would have been left behind in the annals of loudspeaker history a long time ago.

yeah ... mebbe i've yet to hear a "good" LP12 ... well... we'll see

I owned in my many years Linn, Thorens(a few models) and Technics(few models). The Linn is truly overpriced and a Technics SL1200mk2 will get close to it and also it is current model. It is built like a tank and get really great sound. You can upgrade your entire system around it for many years and set up including alignment is real easy. I am willing to even help you. Look for 2nd hand in real good cond making sure never used by dj's and you have one to pass to your kids or in your case, to your dad's grand kids!

I too am using the LP12 and if I were to bring it up to current specs ie. Radikal PS, Keel etc, would probably cost me in excess of RM25k.

Chee sin as the cantonese would say but having heard it in Spore, it is indeed a costly hobby. LOL!!!

And I'm not even talking the Ekos arm yet.

foomarnhing wrote:I owned in my many years Linn, Thorens(a few
models) and Technics(few models). The Linn is truly overpriced and a
Technics SL1200mk2 will get close to it and also it is current model.
It is built like a tank and get really great sound. You can upgrade
your entire system around it for many years and set up including
alignment is real easy. I am willing to even help you. Look for 2nd
hand in real good cond making sure never used by dj's and you have one
to pass to your kids or in your case, to your dad's grand kids!

Hi foo...very kind of u to help us hear..keep us update on used TT..thanks

It perhaps hold true people here would immediately overrate the LP12 merely and primarily for price morever converted to Ringgit.
Personally I tend to be with a similar view, but the asking price for LP12 and its upgrade items is fact and a small fortune even to owners in the west. I feel Linn are not perturbed whether people buy their products or not but there's still people buying anyhow. For the current price of a new LP12, there's lots of competition and better ones for that same money.
I know their new upgrade parts altogether doesn't only suppose to uplift the sonic quality of LP12 but it been experienced by many where it actually changes the musicality, pace, rhythm, tonality and presentation to some extent, very different, better or worse from what some owner is used to. Whether owners perceive the installed upgrades as superior improvement in many departments is entirely up to each individual. There's still a large number of owners who are entirely happy with their old or classic LP12 minus the new upgrades and swearing its still more musical and perform what their genre of music should sound like. Whatever it is, a excellent and competently setup LP12 is the key to great performance.

BTW, there's some old TT's for sale in the market and the asking price is way way over its original price and some to the point being unrealistic. how leh? Overrated?

Willing buyer, willing seller. While some feels the price of 2ndhand LP12s are over-rated, they still get sold readily so this continues to set the price at that level. A properly set-up LP12 in a properly matched system do sound very very good indeed. Most high-end audiophiles consider the LP12 to have a bloated and slightly uncontrolled bass. But its sense of rythm, some call it musicality, and its ability to carry a tune is its strongest point. So in a way, it appeals to those who listens primarily to music and not so much to 'hi-fi' (not meaning to offend anyone here). Nevertheless, while Linn themselves would like to think the LP12 is the 'best turntable in the world' (just like SME says their SME-V is the best tonearm in the world), the truth is those high-end hifi systems I have the good fortune to hear - none of them is based on the LP12. Nevertheless, it is also fair to say that -some- of the owners also runs a 2nd system and it seems a number of those -are- based on the LP12.

A quick check on Ebay will reveal almost every Rega and LP12 is quickly bidded upon by someone somewhere everyday and the final bid is not exactly cheap. That speaks for itself.
Plainly speaking, if anyone can afford these fine things for own hifi, the ability to afford quickly opens the door to a large choice in the market...period.

The popularity of the LP12 and Rega (usually P3 with RB300) is in part due to the popularity of the british hi-fi magazines amongst the newcomers to hifi. I myself was weened on a diet of What HiFi ? HiFi Choice, and HiFi News. It helps that these magazines are not that expensive. Eventually I moved to TAS and Stereophile. But thankfully (IMHO), I have managed to mature to the highest level - I no longer read magazines, not even internet sites. I depend on my own ears when auditioning hifi. Of course, I still enjoy reading reviews occassionally but somehow they are only fun and interesting to read -after- I have bought the equipment. I usually find it interesting to comapre the reviewer's notes to my own opinions about the product.

I agree wholeheartedly with foomarnhing. It was my first TT, very hard to better. For me, the whole point of a good source, is to extract maximum information and present in a manner in which i can be made to feel that its ppl playing instruments and singing. This, the SL1200mkII does very well, though its a pity that most users never give it a good enough cartridge to really sing. Other tables have more detail, slam, inner detail .... and the list goes on, but without doing the fundamental thing correctly, that is to play music in a homogeneous way, even and continuous ...

So all that is left now is a collection of "hi-fi" artifacts ... and the boat has been missed, all swimming around in the pond, chattering on and on about their actual objective, none knowing how to get back on the boat. Happy swimming!! LOL!

I now use an air driven Lenco L75, with all the Lenco's infamous vices removed/ corrected .... all the juice and detail ... but so effortlessly natural.

Cheers to all!

I've always considered to own a SL1200 in future but I've already own a mid priced and very much slimmed down quartz Technics in the form of SL-5300 with whizz bang features and a much heavier platter than the SL1200. I overhauled and restored it recently back and now only as a show piece. It was my first TT and had a lot of fun with it in those days but kept in cold storage and temporarily gave up hifi for quite sometime, because of career commitments. I don't think I'll consider owning one soon unless I've had a chance to compare it over a few days of audition. Even then I may not have the place to store more stuff.
Wait lah.. maybe in future if there's a real opportunity. I always felt the SL1200 achilles heel was the platter mass. The platter is lighter because of DJ use. A heavy platter is not suitable for scratching. If only there was an alternate platter with heavier build, as with its SP series brethren, its very likely to give many hifi TT's hellava run for the money. SL1200 is the best build of all SL series and only upgraded with more DJ features, otherwise its core build and engineering is mostly same. Anyway a new SL12xx from Singapore Hin Huat at Sim Lim is going to cost somewhere RM2.3k after conversion. Its VERY RISKY to buy a used one without knowing its past history...a no no if was constantly used in the entertainment business.

Wow ... is Lenco still in business ?

i got a nice small Lenco stroboscope metal dish plate. It can strobe 33, 45 & 78 rpms.

mugenfoo wrote:i got a nice small Lenco stroboscope metal dish plate. It can strobe 33, 45 & 78 rpms.

Remnant from a past era.

I still think SL-1200MK2 is the best

seanlee731107 wrote:I still think SL-1200MK2 is the best

You've exhaustively compared it side by side with other makes? Do enlighten me, I'd like to know why too.

Hi all, finally the item has been sold. Thank you all for the support and suggestions, really appreciate it. Looks like my thread has been fav meeting point for TT lovers Lets keep the thread alive!!!

PS: To anyone who wishes to buy TT for their dad please do make sure with your dad!!! It is a pain in the ass lesson to learn. Well, at least we still have this thread. Cheers

seanlee731107 wrote:I still think SL-1200MK2 is the best

That's a DJ's turntable, isn't it?

bassraptor wrote:

seanlee731107 wrote:I still think SL-1200MK2 is the best

That's a DJ's turntable, isn't it?

Yes its perhaps the best choice for DJ's todate since its was introduced. Its still being produced and perhaps the one and only model from Technics TT now. Having said that, its also very suitable for hifi, just that the pitch control is unlikely to be used.

Best is really very relative. Perhaps the poster meant SL1200Mk2 is the best amongst the SL series ? The thing is our reference standard for 'best' is really determined by how much we are exposed to. When we have not heard anything better, than the LP12 for e.g. is 'the best turntable'. But if we are fortunate enough to listen to other turntable, then this criteria for 'best' can often be overturned. My original 'best TT' was the Thorens TD160. But later I bought an LP12 because it was the 'best' TT. Then, as I am very blessed to get to know lots of good friends, I was able to sample lots of even better turntables. Names like Roksan, VPI, Goldmund Studio, Oracle, etc. In recent years, I was further humbled by the experience of the truly state-of-the-art TTs like Goldmund Reference, Thorens Reference, Clearaudio Statement. So now, where is that reference level for 'best' now ?

...in the listener's mind + imagination perhaps?

Harry Pearson, founder of the magazine 'The Absolute Sound' (or TAS) forwarded the idea that the absolute best sound is actually LIVE sound. I.e. a recording, be it LP, CD, even master tape, are simply electronically captured copies of the live sound. So there is an absolute standard, the real 'best' referenece level, and this is defined by the original live music. Therefore, how good a hifi equipment is will be measured by how close it can reproduce the live sound. This proposal is so far the most sound ever made and most honest hifi enthusiasts including reviewers have adopted this ideal. Unfortunately this ideal works well for classical music (which ironically very few, if any, hifi system can reproduce the true scale of a symphony orchestra) but doesn't work well for pop, rock, etc. This is because pop/rock can only be heard in a live concert and through a PA system. This is also why jazz is often used to evaluate a hifi equipment because live jazz music is often un-miked and one can often listen to the real musicians playing in a club and then buy the LP or CD of them. Unfortunately, not everyone likes these kind of jazz (I prefer new orleans jazz for e.g.)

but the problem is that the "live" sound also needs to be captured by some means of an "electronic capture device".

hence the importance of sound engineers, the mikes they use, the MIKING techniques used, etc etc etc .

Even the essence of "live" sound is tuned by the acoustic engineers , as evidenced by the changing of ceiling heights, panel placements and whatnots as they do in Carnegie Hall and the Petronas Philharmonic hall. In temperate countries, even more drama... they tune the concert hall even to compensate for ambient temp, humidity, barometric pressure and whatever other "Weather" conditions as the speed of sound varies with atmospheric conditions hence the build up of standing waves, and sonic diffractions all vary according to the prevailing conditions.

Furthermore, this is exactly why as mentioned above, the "LIVE" sound of a rock concert is already via crazy amps and speakers blaring 150dB into the big open space. So in this respect, those monster amps and speakers should then be the reference of the "LIVE" and "ORIGINAL" sound, in spite of their distortions which for all intent and purposes could well be done intentionally (like the overdrive and distortion pedals for an electric guitar).

And adding on further, there is so much processing done in the mastering of recordings. I am reminded of this DVD documentary of the making of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album... and in that track "Breathe", the echoey effect was actually ELECTRONICALLY generated instead o the illusion that it was recorded in an echoey studio. Alan Parsons himself was meddling with some sliders and demonstrating & giving commetary about how he would "create" the ambience and atmosphere for any particular song in that album.

So, with all due respect to Harry Pearson, don't take his word to the gospel truth as a blanket statement that is applicable for all situations. The real world just doesn't work that way.

LIVE sound could be very nastily presented, and them smart alec recording engineers sure know a thing or two to "window-dress" and package the original sound into something more pleasing to the hifi enthusiasts who are after all, still consumers.

Perhaps the only ONE exception to all the above would be some very rare "direct to disc" recordings of a live band playing or singer singing into a LP cutter machine that cuts the LP in realtime. But how many music material is there out there recorded on "direct to disc" method ? The impracticality of such a scenario would have been too imposing on the recording industry in general.

Because i'm currently using the SL-1200MK2. Besides that, I I still looking for technics SP-10.. I'm looking for this model quite some time. It's very rare to have this turntable in Malaysia.

Ah so, the SL1200Mk2 is the 'best' for your requirement then. Very fair statement if that is the case. I think some of us mistekenly thought that you meant to say the SL1200Mk2 is the best TT there is.

Mugenfoo, HP's original idea of the live-sound as used for judgement is that of a live classical concert, or live ACOUSTIC concert. Pink Floyd's music for e.g. has quite a lot of processed sounds in them and this was my original point that live-sound used as reference is not always feasible. I think you got sucked into the confusion of talking about recording techniques, equipments, etc. It is true that we need to use artificial means to record something. But eventually, the judgement of how accurate a speaker is (for e.g.) can best be decided by how accurate it reproduces the sound of musical instruments. The Steinway piano. Or the Stradivari violin. Even the electric guitar. For those who have heard these type of instruments and are familiar with how they sound real live, then they will be the basis for judgement how accurate the hifi system is. And this includes the recording as well. This is why there are such things as good and bad recording.

but the point i am trying to stress here is that even the Stradivari violin, Steinway piano WILL sound DIFFERENT depending on the Initial conditions in which the instrument was played, and also the Recording techniques used to CAPTURE the aforesaid event.

No two events are truly duplicable (Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle: it is possible to duplicate it, but almost infinitely unlikely that such a condition will occur in our lifetime) and hence there is no single point of reference in regards to LIVE music as a standard.

The Steinway piano played at different times of the day, in a different venue, at different atmospheric conditions, WILL sound different.

Even if one would record the performance of a Steinway in a totally 99.999% anechoic chamber, the different miking techniques, mike placement, & electronics used in the recording process WILL impose its own unique thumbprint on the "recorded sound". This is what most people especially hifi consumers do not yet reach this enlightenment or understanding.

Hence the caution that motherhood statements from personalities like Harry Pearson, J Gordon Holt or those "gurus", must always be taken with a BIG BIG BAG of SALT.


The ONLY reliable point of reference is the FIRST CAPTURED INSTANCE of the concert or studio event and this is already as processed by the recording engineers to fit certain criteria already. (mebbe they want more ambience, more depth, wider sounstage or more solid imaging in the recorded content....)

Thats the point i am making here.

Sad to say, but going back to good old engineering principles, the only reliable source of how well any piece of hi-fi equipment performs, would still be the battery of technical tests that the knowledgeable electronics engineer would lab-test on the equipment in question.

And thats why Stereophile's test & measurement and their overly technical charts are there for a reason, not just eye candy to fill in the pages. If one has the technical depth and understanding to read those graphs, they reveal that even the most high end top dollar hardware are still built with compromises and glaring imperfections.

...and to add to the Pandora's box of the "FIRST CAPTURED INSTANCE" (aka FCI), one would need some form of playback system to present the FCI to an audience right ? Would the initial playback system be the reference in which all other playback systems will be judged against ?

From a logical flowchart / diagram perspective, the source that gives birth to the FCI would be the ideal reference, but this reference is neither duplicable nor repeatable due to the conditions mentioned in my immediate prior post.

The FCI itself is also not a point of reference because it is has a dependancy and still requires some form of playback system to present the contents of the FCI.

How would one reference the FCI against the initial source (it being the convert event or studio recording session) instead?

So coming back to the real world, we should be be grateful that whatever systems we have (given the constraints of certain parameters like money, listening room space, etc etc) would have to make do with the BEST APRROXIMATION of what we IDEALLY THINK the SOUND ought to be. And while years and years of experience certainly would lend credibility, the final judgement will always have the human-emotion factor in it, and therefore is as good a guess between one "guru" versus another "guru"'s opinion, bias, and prejudices. This is the cruel factual logic behind the whole consumer hi-fi industry.

This is getting really philosophical (hi-fi world-wise) & I welcome all serious & mature feedback on the matters above.

Well, let's put it this way. Every discipline needs a tenet or a set of tenets to adhere to, which its followers deem to be the absolute ... while science is inescapably ruled by the known laws of the universe, art is relative. Which is why people like HP and JGH kinda laid down tenets that described high-fidelity reproduction. From these, we are able to form opinions and judgements both beyond and within the scope of these tenets, which form the point of reference. Some of us explore within and outside these boundaries, others prefer to keep the pillars of the faith intact.

Do I make sense?

Good lord!!!

It's just a TT for dad!!!

LOL!!!

Allow me to expand on bassraptor's posting:

so lets say that hi-fi is an "art", then there should be no absolute references as none will eventually hold water.

How does one hold a painting by Leonardo DV or Van Gogh to be "absolute" ? It is in the eyes of the beholder and therefore the concept of absolute cannot apply . One man's meat is another man's poison.

Even in science, there are really no absolutes either. Newtonian mechanics (F=M x A, etc) only holds water within the realm of everyday motion. Apply it to physical objects traveling close to the speed of light and it collapses. For that we need Einstein's Theory of Relativity. yet again when we go from the infintely large to the infinitessimaly small, Relativity is out the window but Quantum mechanics take over.

So there you have it ... the key phrase is "pillars of faith". There are just some things we take on faith. And when it comes to faith, there are prophets, and there are followers. (Nevermind the followers of certain charlatans. Lets leave this group out of the debate for now.) But there are also the non-believers who would beg the world to differ. Would these be the "exploratory" type ? Perhaps.

RobA4 wrote:Good lord!!!

It's just a TT for dad!!!

LOL!!!

Exactly .. this is so FUN !!!

Hi Ppl,

Since this is so fun, it warrants a topic of its own. Just done a split from the 'Turntable for Dad' topic.

Carry on.

Hmmm... I'll have to opt out of this discussion on the absolute sound. In the words of Mr Spock:

"It would be impossible to discuss this (further) without a common frame of reference".

In the absolute sense, I think women are more interesting than turntables ... but only when I'm not in front of a turntable. ... there you have it, exploring outside my pillars of faith.

used P3 price starts at au699, shure M97 xe catridge, good price?

no laybys!! hehe

You guys have made me to think of buying a few pieces of LP to run on my old skool CEC TT...

Car o scope, do go ahead. You won't regret. Or wait. Actually you might regret because you will probably go bonkers hunting for LP versions of your favourite albums. Then later, you will want to upgrade that TT. Then you will surely go broke and you will blame all of us here because we poisoned you.

Bassraptor, I fully agree. Women is more interesting than TTs. But then can also be more frustrating. At least with a TT we know how to fine-tune it, to set-it up. But it's not that easy when your women is some how upset at you but won't tell you because she is not talking to you !!

Again, I feel a hifi lover is truly blessed if his partner is also a nusic lover. Thankfully nowadays we have the Karaoke so women who seems to inherently be music lovers can indulge to their heart's content with singing their favourite songs. I find it one of the most satisfying things in my passion for this hobby when my wife teaches me about the olden chinese songs which I used to listen to and love when young. And I discover them all over again. Then I find out the song's name and original singer from her. And the challenge and satisfaction of finding a used LP of that singer/song. And finally to enjoy the song together on the system. This is why I assembled the 2nd system and I purposely bought tube equipment. So that even the less than stellar quality used chinese LPs all sound very nice.

WongKN wrote:Hmmm... I'll have to opt out of this discussion on the absolute sound. In the words of Mr Spock:

"It would be impossible to discuss this (further) without a common frame of reference".

if i may be so bold as to interpret the above: It is not "sound" in itself but the "production of sound", "reproduction of sound" & "perception of sound" that has no common frame of reference.


Sound in itself is just it, sound. It is its own reference, like a one off job. All the rest, flaky at best

If anyone has an opinion for a common frame of reference for the 3 criterias listed above. ... Pls do enlighten ! i am all ears !

Or is my logic thus far too brutally logical or twisted?

No, you should take that statement literally at face value. What it means is that your music preference is different from my music preference. From the albums in your collection, your music tends to have little to none acoustic instruments in it. Note this is not a judgement of your music taste (which no-one has the right to judge another's music taste as valid or not). But it is a point that needs to be understood. My kind of music tends to be dominated by acoustic instruments and vocals and also not the type of songs you listen to. So for your case, there is literally no true 'live sound' you can identify with. In this case, your logic and your arguments makes perfect sense and it makes sense that you can't understand or identify with the idea of a 'live sound' as reference because to you, live sound means a live concert, with the band singing into a PA system with thousands of fans screaming. So there is no live sound to form the reference. Put another way, I wonder how long you will last if I put on a violin concerto CD into your system.

In the case of those people like me, the live sound may not be the idea that people like HP are proposing. Rather the live sound is the sound of for e.g. a real violin. Even when recorded in a studio or hall, a good recording can segregate the direct sound vs the indirect (reflected) sound of the recording environment. Then other recordings are close-miked with the recording mike put very close to the instrument (though these kind of recordings tend to have exaggerated details). But for me, more importantly is how real the recording sounds, in the sense of how accurate it reproduces say, a real violin. When one is familiar with how a real violin sounds, then he/she might fully understand why many people uses the violin as one of the important judging criteria in an equipment review because very few hifi equipment is able to fully reproduce the full tonal envelope of a violin. In my case, I have dabbled in the violin before, actually learned how to play the instrument for a short while during uni-days. So I know intimately how a violin sounds in real-life. This then forms the frame of 'live sound' reference for the violin for me. Similarly the classical guitar. Or the saxophone (but no I never did learn how to play the saxophone so this one is mainly through hearing it as an audience), double bass, etc.

Thus the appropriateness of Mr Spock's statement "it is impossible to discuss without a common frame of reference". It would be like the never ending argument of cars, which is better. Or how some people can listen to new orleans jazz while others seem to like Linkin' Park.

We worry too much about absolute sound and what Harry Pearson or J Gordon Holt or Robert Harley say. Just enjoy your music ... as someone said, it's all about the journey.

come on guys

between a p3 & creek cd60?
both starts at au699, mint condition

which will you prefer to buy?