Which is the best amp in the world?

in this part of the world, especially in hong kong, indonesia and malaysia, audiophiles have been following the battle between fm acoustics, soulution and vitus for the position as best amp around. there have been reports of deep-pocketed audiophiles selling their krells, goldmunds, mark levinsons, brystons and other high-end brands to switch to the three brands mentioned above.
i am starting this thread so that others can comment on this "amp war" and what they personally think the best amp in the world is....
tx

Sflam, thanks for initiating so many interesting discussions.

I will take the 1st bite but I have only heard two of the three amps you listed : solution (courtesy of you know who) and fm acoustics (at KLAVS). The solution has been exemplary so far but unfortunately I found the fm acoustics to be very underwhelming, meaning the system is was in sounded very ordinary.

Having said that, I have to add however that the solution-based system is not the best I have heard so far. Several Krell based systems still have it beaten flat.

But therein lies the pitfall of this discussion. All the amps are in very different systems and the solution is handicapped by the speaker (Audio Physics Caldera) whereas the Krell systems have state of the art speakers (Wilson Watt Grand-Slam for e.g.) For mere mortals like me, it is unfortunate but I have to take whatever priceless chance I have to sample these wonderful hifi components meaning if an owner is generous enough to invite me to listen, I jump at the opportunity. But obviously I can't dictate the system or circumstances in which to audition them.

Given the limitations, so far, the solution have outperformed the fm acoustics but it itself is smashed by the best Krell systems I have heard.

Hmmm... I feel warm all over. Sure makes me proud to be a Krell owner. Even if it's a low budget Krell.

WongKN, which speaker was paired with the FM Acoustics? and what was the cd player used?
tx

Embarassingly I forgot the brand but it was definitely higher end than the Audio Physics Caldera.

WongKN wrote:Sflam, thanks for initiating so many interesting discussions.


Given the limitations, so far, the solution have outperformed the fm acoustics but it itself is smashed by the best Krell systems I have heard.

Dude... it's "SOULution not "Solution".

I think FM is overrated, also never seen them appear in stereophile

according to many, the best reviewed amplifier in the world is Kondo Ongaku although there are more amps more expensive it

Talking about the Kondo Ongaku, I do remember him coming out with a more powerful version which was said to sound even better. It was called 'Gaku-On' (serious).

These Jap amps ... pumping out single or at most double digit watts power only.

Ongaku was rated at 27Watts rms into 8 Ohms, and cannot "double up" the wattage into 4 Ohms because of its high output impedances.

I'd reckon they would make excellent head-fi amps instead.

Dynaudio Arbiter? This what Dynaudio use at their factory and during development.

Weren't the Ongaku and the Gakku-on both products of AudioNote? How and when did Kondo come into the picture?

Kondo is the founder's name.

Hiroyasu Kondo.

Another manufacturer, not related to Kondo has actually trademarked the Audio-Note brand outside of Japan. As a result, when one talks about Audio-Note, there are actually two totally unrelated manufacturers. So for fans of the original (Japan-based) Audio-Note, they differentiate by putting the founder's name in front. Hence Kondo Audio-Note Ongaku.

WongKN wrote:Talking about the Kondo Ongaku, I do remember him coming out with a more powerful version which was said to sound even better. It was called 'Gaku-On' (serious).

my friend knows how to clone the gaku-on & ongaku, but cost of making them is too expensive. sound quality is 100% same as original

i am saving money now

Audionote UK was previously the marketing agent for the Japanese company. Japanese company make for Audionote UK

Something went wrong, something like breaching contract. Then Japanese company renamed to Kondo

I think you can find some tales of their dispute on the internet. Do a search and read in your own time. I think this issue is out of context and need not be picked on further.

M7 wrote:

WongKN wrote:Talking about the Kondo Ongaku, I do remember him coming out with a more powerful version which was said to sound even better. It was called 'Gaku-On' (serious).

my friend knows how to clone the gaku-on & ongaku, but cost of making them is too expensive. sound quality is 100% same as original

i am saving money now

With 20lbs. of silver in it too! That would be a lot of money.

well, i think the FM Acoustics amps would perform better than others when driving speakers with difficult and complex loads. this is because the FM Acoustics amp is stable to 1 ohm and even below that.

cmboy wrote:I think you can find some tales of their dispute on the internet. Do a search and read in your own time. I think this issue is out of context and need not be picked on further.

So who appointed you moderator?

sflam wrote:well, i think the FM Acoustics amps would perform better than others when driving speakers with difficult and complex loads. this is because the FM Acoustics amp is stable to 1 ohm and even below that.

No big deal. The Krell FPB-600 can even be used as a welding machine, should you decide to give up hifi and open a metal shop or car workshop.

BTW, for all who don't know, a typical M.I.G. welder generates around 200~300amps to weld metal together.

And this is what the Krell will do without blowing a fuse.

Don't believe me ? Go look up the archived Stereophile review on the FPB-600.

bimmerman wrote:

cmboy wrote:I think you can find some tales of their dispute on the internet. Do a search and read in your own time. I think this issue is out of context and need not be picked on further.

So who appointed you moderator?

@bimmerman, by the power vested in me from the Gods of hi-fi snake0ilogy and bull5h!tology , I hereby appoint you as the "moderator of self-appointed moderators" in this forum.

You may now freely and unabashedly flood and bury them with your darkest insinuations, antagonisms and condescension. Should you feel the need for further reinforcement, you may call upon me & my role as the self-appointed high-priest of SiinKarLaanology for added spice and venom as so to achieve the desired effects.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Driving difficult loads is something a true 'best' amp must be able to do well. The mother of all difficult to drive speaker is probably the Apogee Scintilla. Legend has it that this speaker's impedance drops down to below 0.5ohms at certain frequencies. I myself have seen at least 1 case where the power amp actually 'cooked' itself when driving the speaker, the amp starting to smell like burning circuit board with smoke actually coming out of the amp. My friend from Singapore (and therefore this is not 1st hand experience) used to amuse me with stories of how over there, this shop with a pair of Scintilla will challenge everyone to bring their amp over to see how it handles the speaker; anyone who claims their amp is good. Of course, they make them sign an idemnity form so they can't claim for damaged amp lar. Legend has it that only the Krell and Mark Levinson was able to go through the acid test intact. And for every other amp, including famous names like Threshold, Rowland, etc, they all actually blow up (bang, pop, crackle, sizzle) halfway through the music.

The later Apogees were made much kinder loads because Apogee found that sales of their speakers is limited since not everyone is willing to use Krell amps.

About the stories of Audio Note and Kondo Audio Note, what I heard was different. But I intentionally glossed over the details. I think it is sufficient to let people know that there are indeed two separate brands. If they want to find out anything more, as suggested, google is always around.

Yes, those early Apogees were reputably the most difficult load to drive, I think the Mark Levinson ML-2, which was a 25-watter, all of it Class A, delivered 400-watts into the half-ohm load. Bi-amping was recommended! I read somewhere one of the early Krell monoblocks from the 1980s was up to the task, too ...

There is no such thing as "best amp in the world".

Just as there is no best car in the world, or best hotel in the world, or best boat in the world.


Everything is always built around a set of compromises.


So the FINAL answer to the topic above is: NONE !!

that's it, mugenfoo, that's the logical conclusion to this debate!

since sflam started this thread and is reading it, may we now surmise that he is an idiot for starting this particular thread in the first place? Don't worry, I already told him in person yesterday, may as well formalise it in public ...

bassraptor and i go back a looooong way. so i can take a few insults from him. after all he has sold his krell for a mcintosh - the rocker has turned mellow. getting old?
anyway just to share what i found in some website about the best pre/power amps.

Tube -

Tube Research Labs Platinum Golden Triode Reference Preamplifier
Jadis JP-800
Conrad Johnson Anniversary Reference Triode Series 3 Linestage
Audio Research Reference Three Vacuum Tube Stereo Line Preamplifier
Vacuum Tube Logic TL-7.5 Mk.II Reference Linestage Preamplifier
Aesthetix Callisto Signature Tubed Preamplifier w/Remote Control & 2 x Power Supplies
Balanced Audio Technologies REX Balanced Preamplifier
Zanden Audio Model 3000 Tubed Linestage Preamplifier
The Messanger Preamplifier w/External Power Supply
Kondo M1000 Mk.II
First Sound Audio Paramount Mk.II Special Edition Statement
Expressive Technologies Model 1 Preamplifier
Audion Premier Quattro 4-Chassis Model
Audio Tekne Model TEA-9501PCS Stereo Pre Amplifier
Loth-X Silbatone C-102
Essence The Japser Reference
Shindo Labs Petrus III Dual Mono Preamplifier
Electron Images Amati Preamplifier
LAMM Industries L2 Reference Preamplifier
Wavac Audio PR-T1 Line Preamplifier
Glass Master LC-1 Preamplifier

Solid State:

Scan Tech Lyra Connoisseur 5-0L SE
Boulder Amplifiers 2010 Isolated Balanced Preamplifier
FM Acoustics Resolution Series 268
Dynaudio Arbiter Monaural Preamplifiers
Goldmund Mimesis 22 Signature Analogue Preamplifier
Krell Evolution Two Monophonic Linestage Preamplifier
Burmester Reference Line Preamplifier 808 Mk.V
MBL 6010D Reference Line Preamplifier
Mark Levinson No.32 Reference Preamplifier
Halcro dm10
Spectral Audio DMC-30SL Reference Preamplifier
Jeff Rowland Design Group Coherence II
CTC Builders Blowtorch Preamplifier
dartZeel NHB-18NS Preamplifier
Bride Audio Laboratory BAlabo BC-1 Mk.II Control Amplifier
Cello Audio Suite w/Phono Modules
Pass Labs X0.2
McIntosh C1000C Configurable Tube/Solid State Conroller and Preamplifier
Edge Electronics NL Signature 1.1 Preamplifier
Linn Klimax Control Linestage Preamplifier

Power amps:

Tube Research Labs Platinum Golden Triode Reference 800 Mono Amplifiers
Jadis JA-800
Atma-Sphere MA-3 Reference Mono Amplifiers
Conrad Johnson Grand Anniversary Triode Mono Amplifiers(upcoming)
Vacuum Tube Logic Siegfried Reference Mono Amplifiers
Audio Research Reference 610T Vacuum Tube Monaural Amplifiers
Wavac Audio SH-833 Mk.II
LAMM Industries ML-3 Signature Mono Amplifiers
Convergent Audio Technologies JL-1 Limited Edition
Joule Electra VZN-350 Destiny OTL Monoblock Amplifiers
Kondo Gaku-On Mk.II
Shoreline 800 Monoblock Amplifiers
Pathos Acoustics Adrenaline
Glass Master SD-2
Tube Research Labs Single Ended Triode Reference 50 Mono Amplifiers
Loth-X Silbatone 300 SEL
Tenor Audio Hybrid Series 300 Hp Monoblock Amplifiers
Balanced Audio Technologies VK-300SE Dual Block Balanced Zero Feedback Triode Bridged Mono Amplifiers
Ypsilon SET-100 Monoblock Amplifiers
Octave Research Jubilee Monos
Zanden Audio Model 9600 Push Pull Mono Amplifiers
Nagra VPA Mono Amplifiers
Walcott Audio Presence Mono Amplifiers
Cary Audio CAD-1610SE Monblock Amplifiers
KR Audio Double Kronzilla Mono Amplifiers
Marantz Project T-1
Van Gaylord Audio Uni Monoblock Amplifiers

Dynaudio Arbiter Mono Power Amplifiers
Krell Master Reference Amplifiers
Mark Levinson No.33 Reference Monaural Amplifiers
Burmester Reference Line Power Amplifier 909 Monos
GamuT Audio S600M Mk.III
Edge Electronics NL Reference Mono Amplifiers
FM Acoustics Resolution Series 2011
Goldmund Telos 5000
Halcro dm88
Spectral Audio DMA-360S Reference Monaural Amplifiers
Jeff Rowland Design Group Model 301
Krell Evolution One Monophonic Power Amplifiers
MBL 9011 Reference Line Mono Power Amplifiers
Boulder Amplifiers 2050 Class A Mono Amplifiers
Hovland Company Stratos Reference Mono Amplifiers
Audire The New Monarch
Bridge Audio Laboratory BAlabo BP-1 Mk.II Bridged Mono Amplifiers
McIntosh Mc2KW
Essence Jasper Reference Mono Amplifiers
Cello Performance II
Pass Labs X-1000.5
Classè Omega Reference Monaural Amplifiers
Theta Citadel
Esoteric Audio Research M100A
Linn Klimax Chakra 500 Solos
Chord SPM 14000
Accuphase M-8000
Dynamic Presicion DP-A2
Electrocompaniet Nemo Mk.II
Forsell The Statement
Bladelius Design Group Beowolf
Gryphon Anthilleon Signature Monos
Vitus Audio SM-101 Signature Monaural Amplifiers
Sim Audio Moon The Rock
Viola Audio Labs Bravo Reference Monaural Amplifiers

Oh, good god, the revenge of lam ... amp spam!!!!

So, the title of the best amp is not meant for one single product.
It is a category or a class of the best amplifierssssss in the world.

Well, the list seems to me to be just a compilation of the top model from all famous amp manufacturer.

I belief there is no such thing as the best amp in the world. Period. If you guys recall..the YG Acoustics claimed that its Anat Reference speaker is the best speaker in the world, you guys can read its review in the Stereophile March 09 issue. This claim drew a lot of criticism from stereophile readers in the State. Fourtunately we all had the chance, at least I did, to listen to YG speakers at the KLIAV this year. Do you guys think the sound coming out from the YG is the best in the world? I don't think so.
Do you think the Miss Universe is the most beautiful girl in the universe? I don't think so. If you ask me..I would say there much more prettier girls out there than the Miss Universe. But some human would die defending the Miss Universe is the most prettiest in the universe because for him/her it is so. As the saying goes 'beauty is in the eyes of the beholder'. So.. the 'best amp is in the ears of the beholder' and same for the rests of the Hi-fi equipments.

Any "best" amplifier can sound bad in varying degrees, may even loose out to some well setup less expensive system somewhere else due to numerous reasons. Despite being "best" perhaps on paper, by repute or by consensus, be it known well that an "amplifier" (we're speaking about AMPLIFIER in this case, no?) is part of the system to reproduce sound. It'll fully depend on other components in the chain to deliver satisfaction to our ears. No source, No sound..quite a fact.
KLAV is just a show, and by no means even if its supposed to be "BEST", it a show of promotion and potential, nothing more. Its always possible all the systems are temporarily optimized entirely for a 3 day period. Its just worth your ten bucks.

so, given all the responses, shall we just ban sflam from ever posting a thread ever again? that'll teach him.

WongKN wrote:Well, the list seems to me to be just a compilation of the top model from all famous amp manufacturer.

ahem ahem, allow me to clarify .... that @wongkn means is that while those amps are mentioned in the name-list above, some are actually pretty crappy ones!

right or not ? hahahahahahahahahhahahaha

bassraptor wrote:so, given all the responses, shall we just ban sflam from ever posting a thread ever again? that'll teach him.

actually did not expect such an "immature" question to come from such an aged person (if the age shown is accurate). Perhaps the initial intent of the thread was done in jest only. So this could be all one big social experiment to illicit responses from the forumers.

But if @sfspam intended otherwise....

hey mugen, you posted a "hahahahahahaha" one liner reply recently in one thread...do you think that was very mature ah?

Moogenfoo, now you've stirred the wrath of forum deputy chiefministerboy by posting a "hahahahaha". Now you're in trouble Moogenfoo. Come high noon you gonna getcha self thrown into the forum county jail until you grow up. Whatcha gonna do Moogen???

bimmerman wrote:Moogenfoo, now you've stirred the wrath of forum deputy chiefministerboy by posting a "hahahahaha". Now you're in trouble...........

Should I "hahahaahahahaha" now?..and Chiefminister going to step in soon...for sure...I think!

Ok lah.. I got no time for silly tit for tat which may end up squabbling over nothing. I'm going to finetune my LP12.. still something outstanding. Moogen gotta go find that elusive junkie crappy TT from somewhere, Cyall later!...have a nice day folks!..signing out!

OK, seriously for a minute here.

What I felt was that the list compiled was more tailored towards 'courtesy' rather than real listening (sflam -did- highlighted that he compiled the list off the net). Meaning that the 'safest' way to address a question as 'dangerous' as this is to simply list the top model from all major manufacturers. Obviously once the top model is there, few can argue why the 2nd ranked model is not there. And also noone can argue and say "what about XXXX who makes an amplifier costing US$500k, how can you say it's not a contender for the best". So, in that, the list seemed to me to be just a listing of super expensive, top of the range models from each reputable manufacturer. And those are current models (again to be safe) and so the older generation are automatically disqualified. Again, I believe sflam highlighted that he just compiled the list from the net (the net, not the most dependable place for accurate infor - I should know ! ). I don't think he claims to have listened to all of them. I certainly have not. I have not seriously listened to even 5% of them. So, even if say (for e.g.), I have heard a 2nd ranked model from a manufacturer, or an old out of production model that beats one or two of the names in the list, they can't qualify simply because they are old models and in any case, their current 'brother' is already in the list ! (Krell MRA and KAS comes to mind. There are more).

Threads like this is always a lot of fun as long as it don't turn into a flame war. And as a moderator (and I am sure the other moderators, plus the admin as well agrees with me), I am actually very happy that this thread has remained either serious, or tangented off into a little bit of harmless fun. Anything, as long as it don't turn into a serious flame war !

Re WongKN,

Code:

I have heard a 2nd ranked model from a manufacturer, or an old out of production model that beats one or two of the names in the list, they can't qualify simply because they are old models and in any case, their current 'brother' is already in the list !

I do agree with what WongKN said, because my Naim is not on the list.... hahahah too bad.. Is Ferrari batter or Lamborghini or ????

Chewkw wrote:
I do agree with what WongKN said, because my Naim is not on the list.... hahahah too bad..

No NAIM?

Hi cmboy
Yup, no Naim Audio NAC552, NAP500, CDX3, DBL... Is this system
pretty crappy ?

Chewkw wrote:Hi cmboy
Yup, no Naim Audio NAC552, NAP500, CDX3, DBL... Is this system
pretty crappy ?

You asking me?. I'd luv to own it all if someone donated the system to me. I really don't mind..it'll serve the purpose.

i did not compile the list of pre/power amps. someone else did. it's from some other thread in the Net. i saw it and thought it would be an interesting read.
when i started this thread, i thought other audiophiles would be able to tell me about their experiences with other components. however, only two brands were mentioned - krell (which model btw?) and ongaku.
the list shows that there is more to hi fi than krell, ongaku and even mark levinson.
the amp war between vitus, fm acoustics and soulution is for real and is getting real hot in hong kong, taiwan and to an extent here. a malaysian chinese hi fi mag did a cover story on an audiophile who had krell monoblocks taking on the fm acoustics. a hong kong magazine recently said vitus is the only amp that can outclass the fm acoustics.
these are things that make this hobby interesting....

Aiseh... I cannot find my amplifier in that list...
Hehehehehe.....

A real noobie like me wants to ask "Can get to see these 3 brands here?"
Really unsure why and how HK and Taiwanese rated these 3 as the contenders for the best amp.

McIntosh MC402 is pretty good.

kar o skop, sounds like the LS3/5a thinggy
when others take it easy, they take it seriously ermmm..

car o scope wrote:Aiseh... I cannot find my amplifier in that list...
Hehehehehe.....

Why you worry so much?.. I know MY amps will NEVER make the list, it doesn't even have a brand on it.

Muahahahaha....
Hey.. I am not worried and I dont mind if my amp is not in the list.
I know my level and all the equipments in that list are way over my standard.

If there are chances to listen to them, I will surely appreciate it.
So far only listened to expensive set up at the KLIAV show only.
And many systems there are already very excellent, to my ears.

chewkw, naim is seldom mentioned even in stereophile's list of recommended items. the thing is the british love them, but the yankees don't. the yankees like only certain components from uk - linn, rega, atc, proac, wilson benesch, meridian, exposure, quad, musical fidelity, b & w, kef and a handful more. the yankees don't even think highly of the ls35a. so if a yankee compiles a list of top pre/power amps, chances are naim would be left out.

bimmerman wrote:Moogenfoo, now you've stirred the wrath of forum deputy chiefministerboy by posting a "hahahahaha". Now you're in trouble Moogenfoo. Come high noon you gonna getcha self thrown into the forum county jail until you grow up. Whatcha gonna do Moogen???

bad boys bad boys, whatcha gonna do ? whatcha gonna do?
whatcha gonna do when they come for you ?