Minimalist Setup - Start with Turntable

Hello,

I'm new here and I am away from my everyday audio setup which consist of:

Amp: Unison Research UNICO 80watts hybrid intgrated amplifier.
Source: Cayin cdt-23 transistor / tube cd player
Tube Buffer: MF x10d
Speaker Cable: VAndenhul (hybrid forgot exact model)
Interconnects: XLO's (forgot the exact model)
Speaker: Dynaudio Audience 42

With that said, I am contemplating on building my own budget system starting with a turntable and I am soliciting help / information from co-members what is the minimum setup I can have. Please let me know on the required equipment I should prioritize to start my own set-up.

Other informations are:
Room: 5x6 meter
Music: Voices, Jazz, Standard, Slow Rock, Pop (sometimes)
Budget: To be decided

Setup 1 : Typical list of required componet:
1. Turntable
2. Phono Preamp
3. Speaker (bookshelf for limitted space)
4. Speaker Cable
5. Interconnects
6. Amp

Setup 2: Amplified Speaker
1. Turntable
2. Phono Preamp
3. Speaker (bookshelf for limitted space)
4. Speaker Cable
5. Interconnects
6. Volume selector (preamp???)

Setup 3: Please fill me with other suggestions


Thanks for the feedbck in advance.

What budget are you willing to splurge on?

RM2K may be a starting point for some, but others might wanna start at an entry point of 10K instead.

if you're on a shoestring budget, can start with a real CHEAP-ASS Rega P1 TurnTable. Few hundred bucks only. Sounds like shit but hey, u gets whats you pays for. (Apologies to all Rega P1 owners out there, but it really does sound like shit! Honestly!)

If you're feeling the need to help contribute to our national economy via generous consumer spending, there's always a brand new Clearaudio Performance SE TurnTable waiting for a proud owner to take her home.

hi mugenfoo, thanks for the feedback.

I would not bother too much on the sound but on the sound perspective of the equipment / new TT setup should / must attract me to invest on LP’s even though the equipment is on the entry level. Since the main reason why I am building on a TT setup is to acquire LP’s.

So far my idea for the least expense and concentrate on the LP’s are:

Setup 1:
1 . Active monitors = RM??
2. Phono Stage = RM??
3. Turn Table = RM??

I think that should do it.

Hope somebody could shed out some information on how much the items above will cost. Entry level still…

mrquery,

As mugenfoo has mentioned, it depends on your budget. However if you're thinking of the setup as an investment, then I would suggest you buy a turntable in the mid-range prices. Then you don't have to tweak/upgrade the thing so fast and just keep collecting LPs... Im a Rega owner and fan so my suggestion:

Turntable = Rega P3-24 = RM3,000
Phono stage = Rega Fono = RM700
Active Monitors = Not sure...

Hope this helps...

Hi everyone,

My fingers get itchy every time there's a tt topic. However please refer to previous threads on tt starters and given advice by experienced tt users. I contributed quite a bit too as a guide.

You may have heard a tt front end and like the analogue sound. Funny thing is I should think you must have been used to digital sound, suddenly analogue appeals to you. Interesting.

Ok be warned though. New lps are invariably 180 grams and expensive. RM 125 upwards and only available through websites. Very few are sold locally and even more expensive. S/H records aplenty but condition varies and usually suspect. Unlike your 'seniors', yours truly included, we have our own large collection from new(read older music) since we were born in the analogue years.

Mugen's right Rega 1 is too basic. Go for the Rega 3 as an absolute minimum or not at all.

Good luck.

Cheers

kamen555 wrote:mrquery,
Turntable = Rega P3-24 = RM3,000
Phono stage = Rega Fono = RM700
Active Monitors = Not sure...

Hope this helps...

The Rega P3-24 with that faux trade-in program from Asia Sound means u can buy a brand spaking new Rega p3-24 for RM1600 only. Cheap cheap.

mugenfoo wrote:

kamen555 wrote:mrquery,
Turntable = Rega P3-24 = RM3,000
Phono stage = Rega Fono = RM700
Active Monitors = Not sure...

Hope this helps...

The Rega P3-24 with that faux trade-in program from Asia Sound means u can buy a brand spaking new Rega p3-24 for RM1600 only. Cheap cheap.

Go for the TT PSU upgrade. Other upgrades can be done later.

mrquery,

As a person from the kaset/CD age, I'll repeat what Wan said, LPs are expensive. However, you can still find new ones for less than RM100.

The Back to Black programme has some good selection of music in repressed Vinyl form for about RM75-RM80 per-piece (the double LPs are more expensive). Retailers that sell them are: Rock Corner (OneU, MidValley) & MPH OneU. Selection is limited and many have said the sound-quality is not as the original pressings (kalau rig u harga RM10k mungkin boleh dengar kekurangan quality dia, tapi macam I punya rig yg tak sampai RM5k...boleh laaa...I think better than my CD player)

Amcorp Mall has a few sellers you can deal with, I suggest Greg, HelterSkelter n CheeLoon, they got good selection but a bit pricey.

Ebay has a HUGE selection of stuff you can buy from at reasonable prices by bid. There are a few other websites that sell too. I've had friends buy them for me from Ebay, and they have come to me without scratches or warps...I think like 1 out of 10 deliveries ada la warp kot.

Singapore is GREAT place to buy vinyl at reasonable prices. Simpan duit, pegi dan BELANJA! Mueheheheh...

So alls Im saying is with a modest budget you can still acquire a sizeable vinyl collection. The searching, finding, buying and the mistrials is one of the best part of vinyl collecting (Other than listening to the music !)

Eg of vinyl I've bought n the range of prices:

Radiohead 'In Rainbows' - RM80 (Ebay)
Beatles 'White Album' - RM150 (Amcorp)
Bjork 'Debut' - RM 75 (MPH OneU Back to Black Repress)
U2 'No line on the horizon' 2 lps - RM80 (MPH OneU)

2tigers wrote:

Go for the TT PSU upgrade. Other upgrades can be done later.

Those colourful-colourful P3-24 TT has separate PSU and the whole set is around 2k+ under the so-called trade-in program.

Hello,

Thank you very much for such overwhelming reply. Sorry to be missing on action on my own thread / thread I started.

Will give comment to each and everyones reply I'll just have a quick bite.

First of all, I am sad not be be able to reply and join the post where it happens / when i happens.

well here are my comments:

kamen555, thank you for the figure you have provided, it helped alot. Interestingly:

mugenfoo and car o scope mentioned a very interesting deal on TT
While:

2tigers mentioned an intriging way to make the most of the TT

Wan Azami Hamzah, keep those fingers itchy (it is quite helpful for people like me who's soliciting help from the user). Apologies for not checking on TT post earlier, I'm sure you are pointing me to the right discussion.

salute to you all

As of now, I have the following info:

Turntable = Rega P3-24 = RM1600
(P3-24 TT with faux trade-in program from Asia Sound)
Phono stage = Rega Fono = RM700
Active Monitors = ??? (will check on WTS every now and then)

Hope I can catch the program...

Just to be a bit more precise.
The price of black P3-24 TT is at RM1610 under the current promo.
The shop is very very reluctant to give a round up figure of RM1600.

Oh yes.. before i forget, you have to set aside a budget to buy a cartridge coz the package doesn't have one included.

So its not pay 1610 and you get to play some record afterwards, unless you already have some cartridge lying around and stick it in.
Perhaps worth taking a look at someone's recent advert for a nice Technics SL1210 that comes with a cartridge? At least this one can plug and play.

hmm....

so additional cost will be the cartridge.

what are the options MM or MC?
which is recommended?
how much will it cost?

Below are list I checked on the net.
Bias
Elys
Ortofon

hmm... it's starting to get into the details

MM should suffice,unless you have a really good MC head amp.. more $$$ ler..

Ortofon is good, am playing one right now. Super OM20. Can upgrade to Super OM30 by changing the stylus..

Some promo:
"The Ortofon Super OM20 OM 20
phono cartridge has received accolades from many reviewers and
end-users. Most recently, the Ortofon Super OM20 and the Super OM30
cartridges received the very prestigious Editors Choice Award from The Absolute Sound.
A summary of the review of the Ortofon OM20 Super:
According to The Absolute Sound, the Ortofon Super OM20 has an elusive
quality of relaxed, easy listenability that makes it among the most
appealing of all pickups. The Ortofon Super OM30 is fractionally more
transparent, lively, and dynamic... Both are superb trackers and
achieve a level of sonic/musical performance quite disproportionate to
their bargain-basement price. Highly Recommended.
At the time of its review, the Ortofon Super OM20 was rated in the same performance category as the Shure V15VxMR."

Link http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=OROM20S.

mrquery wrote:hmm....

so additional cost will be the cartridge.

what are the options MM or MC?
which is recommended?
how much will it cost?

Below are list I checked on the net.
Bias
Elys
Ortofon

hmm... it's starting to get into the details

OK, whatever you do .. for the love of , please avoid the Rega Bias like the PLAGUE. It is a downright horrible cartridge suitable only for CHEAP-ASS TTs like the P1.

If u wanna go Rega, at least the Elys2 would be the absolute bare minimum for "decent sound".

Ortofons are good and you'd get a better selection in SG Adelphi, from that Audio-Note shop that has a few models. Or u could buy that one last unit of Shure M75ED which is still a real charmer of a gem even by today's standards IMO.

Another bang-4-buck carty would be a Grado Prestige series. RM200 odd bucks and also for the novelty of it neither a MM or MC but rather a MI (moving iron) design. But who cares what design it is as long it sounds great for the amount of money spent. Grados excel on vocal especially and nevertheless a good all-round performer, but don't expect super mega clarity detailing from it. Available from Music-by-Design at Jaya-ONE shopping ctr, PJ.

For a good MC, be prepared to spend 4 figure dollars. Anything less and you're better off with a good MM (or MI) cartridge instead.

Having actually gone through 3 cartridges in a 2-month timeframe, i'd share some practical advice such that don't go overkill on the cartridge. A too "high spec" MC could actually give crap sound if the Tonearm and overall TT is not up to mark, which is the case that happened to me.

Recently tried out this almost top-end Benz-Micro L2 MC cartridge for approx. 3 sleepless nights and days aligning the beejeebers out of it but the IGD was just terrible. It was also randomly clicking and popping all over the record surface. Turns out, it was actually picking up the "bearing chatter" of the tonearm and passing it back into the Phono stage and hence amplified into snap crackle and pop Rice Krispies(tm)-style. Coz this particular tonearm i'm using just isn't precise enough to carry a top dollar MC cartridge.

Finally returned it for a top notch best MM cartridge (feel free to take a guess which one is it) money could buy and its been vinyl heaven ever since.

And whatever cartridge u get, make sure it's aligned and set up properly. Even more so if the carty is higher end. It's fussier and even less forgiving to poor alignment jobs. Hope u have a good "vinyl guru" friend with the appropriate tools to get the job done first-time-right.

BTW, not too sure about the Rega FONO though .... not because it sounds bad, but that its a rather inflexible device. Fixed gain only.

The importance of a variable gain & variable loading phono stage cannot be over-stated.

And if you wanna dabble into MC, you need a phono stage with adjustable loading to get the sound "right". Anything from 100 Ohms to 2000 Ohms with variable intermediate values would be good.

For MM, its preferable to have variable capacitance loading but not an absolute necessity (MM types specify a fixed 47K ohm for resistance loading) . Ranges would be typically from 100pF and upwards.

Or just to heck with all the above and get a Rega Elys2 and a Rega FONO. Built nicely for each other. Match made in heaven. But then you'd be stuck with this "marriage" for a long long time to come.

mrquery wrote:hmm....

hmm... it's starting to get into the details

OK, here's a red pill / blue pill scenario (just like The Matrix):


Blue pill ... just follow all the ramblings of hifi forums (this one included) from either:
1. self-professed gurus and oracles,
2. Blind-leading-blind ignoramii,
3. half-baked charlatans (a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing),
4. just plain super talk-c0ck forummers.
I'd like to think myself being the 4th group.


Red pill ... really start doing your own research into the art and science (more science and maths actually) of turntable playback mechanisms.
Here's a link to get you started.

http://www.avhub.com.au/Features.aspx?MagazineID=5&FeatureID=85

... and see how deep the rabbit hole goes via Google and various printed books.

Then form your own conclusions. But one thing's for sure, playing analogue TT is anything but "minimalist".


So which pill issit gonna be?

Am a greenhorn as well in the TT arena.

Got myself a Rega P2 with Bias2 cart at RM1K plus with the trade in program. ( go for the Elys cart - if you happen to go for a Rega TT )

Satisfied with the current TT,Will change to better cart some point in time.

Ultimately, enjoy the journey.

Actually my recommendation would be for the guy to go and listen/audition the various alternatives himself, now that he seems to have a working short-list.

An individual's priority and expectation is very personal. Just so it is clear that the intention is purely sincere, the message is that sometimes what is not good enough for someone may be more than good enough for another, especially when there is budget limitations involved.

So even this forum is but a starting point - to gather the experiences of various individuals who are happy to share them. Then to create a shortlist for one to start going out to evaluate it himself. In the end, the person and the person alone must make the final decision. Research IS important, if only to equip oneself with enough basic knowledge to be able to make informed decisions. Websites from various manufacturers (e.g. from Rega) gives the specifications of the TTs they make. Then other useful websites will explain what the various specifications imply. But the really useful knowledge on how to interpret those specifications, in relation to real life scenario, can only be gained from others who have the knowledge & experience and who are willing to share it.

So, after all has been said and done, ultimately the person needs to listen for himself in order to decide if that TT, regardless of its specifications, meets his expectations. Isn't this the 2nd most enjoyable thing to do in the whole selection process ? (the most enjoyable being to listen to the system after buying it and properly setting it up).

Thinking hard about it, this is after all, the premise on which this forum itself is founded on - the sharing of knowledge and more importance, the sharing of experience.

wingman wrote:Am a greenhorn as well in the TT arena.

Got myself a Rega P2 with Bias2 cart at RM1K plus with the trade in program. ( go for the Elys cart - if you happen to go for a Rega TT )

Satisfied with the current TT,Will change to better cart some point in time.

Ultimately, enjoy the journey.

Anyone figured out how to finetune the Rega TT's speed via home-made solutions?

Even the upgraded outboard TT for the P3-24 doesn't have any fine adjustment for the speed, and Rega's in stock form always tend to run notably faster.

Its quite easy actually and cost you nearly nothing. A couple of rounds of PVC tape on the subplatter side and thats about it.
I actually experimented with something else but I think I ended up preferring the tempo and pace of the Rega as it designed.
Note that the newer P3-24 motor is 24VAC type whereas all the older P3-2000, Planar 2/3 and LP12 had the Premotec/Airpax 110VAC synchronous motor. They depend on 2 frequencies out of phase with each other. Reduction of voltage doesn't do the trick in this case. The new P3-24 outboard PSU isn't compatible with the older Rega TT's.

Did you mean you opened out that PSU box and there's nothing to adjust?
However. a serious upgrade using the HK made Hercules II PSU board and re-wiring the Rega motor to it may offer a better solution. I've read some claims that The Pro-Ject Speedbox SE (expensive) does work on the 110VAC motor of older Rega. I'm just not prepared to plonk the cost of that speedbox yet.

Shrink tubing to terminals. You know what you may have achieved actually? It might not just entirely just "to look nice and neat" job.
Indirectly increase the cable capacitance to some degree. May be ok for MM, but have to be careful with MC carts. In practice, some MM cartridges need to finetune the capacitive and impedence loading to the phono stage and the amount of capacitance affects the RIAA and resultant frequency response. Too much and the FR will take a dip. This issue may apply to some tonearm cables, internal and external. For me its worth researching some science of tonearm cables before doing any extensive mods to the arm.

I remember one or two of my own Shure carts needed more capacitance loading than what was available to sound more pleasant, less splashy, aggresive and easier on my ear. In my early days, I thought most things were plug n play.. didn't seem quite that later on, as I delved more into this dark side of things.
Also be careful not to use too heavy a clamp on the Rega, no doubt you may seem to find some improvement, but the P1/P2 bearing is smaller and lighter duty than P3 above. May risk premature bearing wear, especially at the bottom of the spindle. Not a good prospect if the bearing is worn down prematurely.
If the purpose is to clamp the LP flat, the Michell Engineering clamp is most suited for the job. You can find it easily on Ebay or online shops.
My 0.02 sen.

Hi CMBoy, Thanks for the sharing. Shrink tube to terminal can make it capacitance??
I would consider this mod to make it more resistance to EMI. Please explain more.
As of the clamp thing...I know what danger I am exposing myself to..haha.
Thanks.

As for me I have not done much changes to the TT nor the Phono stage, as i am satisfied with the output. Any "mod" in the near future would involve my Phono Stage.

Was made to understand that changing the cables from the ARM would impact the capacitance. Was advice strongly not to change but to toy around with the Phono stage.

Mugen, read in a Web forum ( during my search for an Acrylic platter ) that placing an "O" ring at the outer ring of a platter would slow the speed. ( and these are flat "O" rings )

Suspect its added weight.

Some care that I have taken for my TT;

I have also added "synthetic oil" into the platter inserts. Added lubricant for the original bearings. And would continue to do this on a periodic basis. ( yearly ) A good clean and top up.

cheers

Synthetic oil does the bearing good, no doubt. Actually normal lube oil does too. The point is, as long as the bearing assembly is with sufficient lube and not running dry, its safe. Its only TT's that haven't been neglected in years or decades that may be need some maintenance. Having said that, Linn does make aware of compatible oil to its differnt bearing material due to changes in the bearing inserts. Wrong oil and the performance may impared or some defect may occur later on. Some TT's specify normal oil, some specify gear oil. Note that common motor lube contain additives and detergents made for use in a hostile combustion engine. Some do claim that this isn't good for TT and prefer machine oil instead. Its quite debatable if anyone delve deeper into this science. Personally I use SAE80/90 for my Rega and thats it. I've not heard any Rega with failed bearing with the use of this lube. If any that worn down prematurely, its due to running dry and not maintained every half decade or so. I suspect many Japanese TT's use specially formulated machine oil for the purpose. They tend to have stricter machine tolerances and are known to have proprietry applications and maintenance (after gathering much info from their factory service manuals).
I've not heard of any TT additional damping rings to the platter that'll slow down the speed. I've experimented once with a 600gram record clamp, and never slowed down a bit, considering everything else is in perfect order. If it slows down, its likely due to belt slippage and imparing the performance. TT belt is a very important consumable, and should be renewed with an exact replacement when its times up.
Another 0.02sen here.

On a periodic basis, I use the "Singer Oil" for the beltings for my car ( one to two drops ) and other moving parts. So far that has worked and no cracks on the belts.

That would be a likely choice for my TT maintenance, pure machine oil with no additives.

Clamps have their benefits but may have other implications as the weight is at the centre compared to the "O" ring which is at the outer layer. Weight distributed evenly ????

Let me get my hands on that forum and will share the URL.

wingman wrote:
Mugen, read in a Web forum ( during my search for an Acrylic platter ) that placing an "O" ring at the outer ring of a platter would slow the speed. ( and these are flat "O" rings )

Suspect its added weight.

Ich dun think so.

The speed is slowed down due to the larger circumference of the platter. Exactly the same effect that @cmboy said of taping the platter's (or subplatter in the case of Rega TT ) edges with vinyl/electrical tape and making it larger.

Its changing the drive pulley's circumference to the platter's circumference ratio aka "gear ratio".

this stuff are a handful for me...

i don't know what to say but to say nomore....

mrquery wrote:this stuff are a handful for me...

i don't know what to say but to say nomore....

don't stop just yet , the fun has barely begun.

seriously...

thank you very much for all the feedbacks, suggestion and
comments

this thread has been an eye opener for me and the countless
possibilities on how to build a system consisting of a turntable

many that has been said on this thread will surely be my consideration
when I am ready to splurge in the world of TT.

also am glad that this thread have given way to share knowledge not only specific to my inquiry but also to others.

but first-off is to buy me at least 10 LP to play then TT
to follow

much respect to all.

mrquery,

Just to add to everyone's input on tweaking their turntables. Regas I think are very susceptible to where they sit on. I unscrewed the feet of my Rega P3 and screwed on Vibropods and rest them on wooden cones. It improved the sound very very muchly. I think it isolates the turntable from the rack. Try it.

Vibropods are sound isolators. You can buy them at any Hifi shops in KL/PJ. RM180 for 4 pieces I think.

Cheers.

kamen555 wrote:mrquery,
Turntable = Rega P3-24 = RM3,000
Phono stage = Rega Fono = RM700
Active Monitors = Not sure...

if you start with MM and plan to buy Rega Fono then I suggest you listen to my JumPan2 preamp 1st before take out your wallet.

wabun wrote:

kamen555 wrote:mrquery,
Turntable = Rega P3-24 = RM3,000
Phono stage = Rega Fono = RM700
Active Monitors = Not sure...

if you start with MM and plan to buy Rega Fono then I suggest you listen to my JumPan2 preamp 1st before take out your wallet.

Does the jumpan2 have a built in phono stage?

Does the jumpan2 have a built in phono stage?

Yes, MM input ( autobias ) with RIAA

I agree with karmen555 on vibrapod treatment for the Rega. Used some myself and it stays there permanently. Perhaps to further enhance the Rega is a well constructed isolation base for it. That one, you go figure and try see what suits you best. I had one TT that sounded excellent on a el-cheapo IKEA pinewood table. (not the cheaper Ikea Lack). Different tweakery to the Rega will change the sound for better or worse, it all depends on owner satisfaction.

My 2sen on Rega ya!..not neccessarily applicable to other TT makes.

I'm using the shure M75ed type 2 with my SME series IIIs, direct drive kenwood mechanism, corian plinth. So far ok, with me. B4 this was using Linn K9, not so energetic. went back to m75ed after my type 4 shure broke stylus, cry cry oh. Replacement so expensive!!! Phonostage is a rotel BX something something.

Haven't much feedback from visitors, as most interested in the CD based section of the setup. So my opinion of OK may not be OK to others lah.

Here is the forum link....

Using rubber bands and something along the lines as what CM described.


http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-44637.html

I reckon anyone thinking about a budget Rega AND have concern about its speed inaccuracy, better look somewhere else. I left mine as-is, unless perhaps I decide to replace/mod to with fancy motor control PSU, replace the subplatter to Groovetracer subP at a great cost. Its a lot of money for this upgrade and I'm not prepared for it, contented as it is.

Just curious, how much faster is the Rega overspeeding? Surely it does not affect the listening pleasure, right?

I have listened to a few Regas.. they sure sound alright to me..

A little bit, maybe 34-35rpm. It'll get worse if your incoming electricity is more than 50hz. They sound alright, unless you start A-B compare to some reference. Mine seems ok at 50hz, measured with Sanwa digital meter.

34-35, well thats not bad!
Sometimes I wonder, the TT we know when we select 33, its 33rpm, right? or is it not?
Some (maybe all, never noticed)LPs are marked 33 1/3 rpm, now IF the TT is spinning at exactly 33 rpm, then you're short of 1/3 rpm per min. or its 33 1/3 rpm on the TT too, 33 is just to make it 'simpler'?

Play as is lah...if it sounds funny, something is wrong. I don't see whats the fuss about one-third rpm more or less. We won't know if the source tapes were at the right speed or not. I think I've heard some re-issue cd's with a wee different pitch or speed. Just accept whatever little shortcomings lah..

Hehe.. not that it matters much to me either!

jazzy939 wrote:Hehe.. not that it matters much to me either!

There's already discussions galore at Vinyl Engine about Rega speed issues time and again. I think nearly all angles are pointed out there for anyone's info. I gather many are quite happy as it is with very few owners are willing to spend money for upgrade parts or just acquire another TT make altogether. I'm very sure, Rega aren't bothered of arguments found on the internet. They're happily selling their plug and play TT to anyone who wants it. Even the Linn LP12 is not entirely 100% accurate, maybe quite close to Quartz lock if fitted with their expensive Lingo or 3rd party Hercules II PSU. I know mine isn't either but confidently almost there within maximum tolerance. I'm satisfied with it for now.

Live with the shortfall and enjoy the music. Unless there is cash idling around.

My P2, sounds purr..fect to my ears. Will live with it.As for now, expanding my vinyl/CD collection is the focus.

Cheers

wingman wrote:Live with the shortfall and enjoy the music. Unless there is cash idling around.

My P2, sounds purr..fect to my ears. Will live with it.As for now, expanding my vinyl/CD collection is the focus.

Cheers

Agree ... lately i also spent too much on "hardware" already. Time to focus more on "software".

in car community TT session means teh tarik session.. oppss