Vinyl to CD conversion

Sometimes it takes a non hi fi buff to tell you a good sound.

Sometime back I recorded a CD from an already recorded CD of mine, being a compilation of selected songs from Paul McCartney's live in Tokyo, James Taylor and Crossby, Stills, Nash and Young vinyl Lps. He'd already owned JT's and CSNY DejaVu Cds, but I thought he might like a compilation inc McCartney's live which he hasn't. He'd listen to music only in his expensive Mercedes and does not have any decent playing system at home nor he needs one. Only to call me up a few days after what the heck is this TDK CDR(music) and how did I obtained 'such a fantastic sound'.

In the 80s and 90sI used to have a Nakamichi which I used to tape compilations or whole vinyl albums and (a bit more) on TDK or Maxell Chrome tapes using Dolby C. These are for in car use as, hehe, you cant have a turntable in your dashboard. But more often as normal playback in the Nakamichi in my home system, relieving the chore of attending to the turntable and saving stylus life in the process, especially during parties.... Analogue to analogue back then, tapes giving away slighty sonic-wise to the original source and the dreaded hiss even with Dolby C dialled in. But otherwise still very very satisfying and beats pre-recorded tapes a zillion times.

Today or rather as of 2001 with a CD radio in all my cars, I switched to a CD recorder. Mine's an older Pioneer PDR 509( replaced by the 24 bit 609 model later). Unlike some new computer stuff for recording analogue and I couldn't care for complexity, other then having to adjust gain there is nothing else to do with these recorders. You have to use special CDRs meant only for CD recorders and these are made available due to professional studio demands. My favorite brand is TDK, and constant visit to Low Yatt shows evidence that I'm not alone buying these.

Compared to tapes, CDRs recorded in real time on my recorder are far superior and will record exact duplicate of my CDs and of course especially good duplicates of my vinyl tracks. And you guess it, analogue sound on CD of course. Just as with my Nakamichi back then I'd record using headphones for monitoring and the amp volume turned to zero to avoid acoustic feedback to the turntable (hmmm....).

With recent computer analogue to digital products made available and cheaper, and downloadable music I think most companies only produce CD Recorders for professional use only, and these are expensive. Pioneer stopped after the 609 model I think. If you come across second hand, especially the 24 bit 609 model( mines a 16 bit model, so I'm hunting for one too) Buy it.

Cheers

i dunno about you ... but each time i "duplicate" from original CDs into CDRs for car use, the sound gets a little worse than the original CD.

So just to really prove a point to see if CD copying is actually an exact duplicate or not, i've discovered that even by using a different brand CDRom, or even burning at different speeds on the same CD drive will result in different bit extractions. Have verified this with a file compare utility.

So there you have it. Copying of CDs (aka redbook format) does NOT result in a bit-for-bit perfect duplication.

Hi Mugen,
Your observations probably proved my suspicion that computer simple aids aren't good enough for hi fi use. I burn quite a few CDs on normal CDRs from my iTunes ( I use Apple computer in my office and use iTunes for background music), AAD files to Cds for friends who visit me in the office and they are sound hopeless by our standards, good enough for them.
No bro I'm talking about serious home CD recorders offered by Pioneer and Marantz in the late 90s and early 2000s. I bought mine in S'pore then for 1200 Sing Dollars. These are technologies filtered down from professional recording studio equipment they produced and continue to produce. Your CDs originated from these exact professional (multi-track) recorders in the recording studio, then mixed and mastered, before using high speed mass production recorders to get the CD that we buy. With dedicated home hi fi CD recorder you can record your vinyl and CDs only in real time on professional grade blank CDs meant only for music! They use to be sold at RM 8 apiece but gotten cheaper now. There are also CDRW Meant for only music!
Imagine having almost identical analogue sound in your car from CDs without installing a TT in your dashboard. That's what I'm talking about. Guess it means more to old hacks like me who used to tape vinyls for car use hehe.

The Absolute Sound and Robert Harley swear that CD-R recordings of CDs are sonically superior to the original, but I'm not sure what their transfer methodology is, can't recall them mentioning it.

It'a a lot about the efficiency of reading the disc. In actual fact, when the drive is reading the CD/CRR/etc, there are a lot of 'drop-outs', i.e. unreadable bits. In a CD player, we can't go back and re-read these drop outs so the CD transport does an interpolation using an algorithm (program). Some CD-Rs are easier for the transport to read, as compared to commercial CDs. So it is conceivable (I am not saying I fully agree but theoretically it is possible) that eventhough the CRD is a 99% correct copy of the original CD, because of less error recovery in the CD player itself, the final input to the DAC is more accurate. I.e. CD-R is 99% accurate but allows the transport to deliver 99% accuracy so the final input to the DAC is still 98% accurate. So now, if the original CD induces more than 2% drop-out rate in the transport, then it is possible for the CDR to sound better simply because there is less 'fake data' (i.e. data which has to be interpolated by the CD player, instead of actually being read from the CD). Again, all these are in theory but it is also the basis for a lot of dedicated, especaily expensive high-end transport.

I think the whole idea here is about attempting best achievable consistency from vinyl to CD. Its of course not everyone will have the luxury of owning a CDR recorder deck and recording in real time. Even me have to resort to the PC and whatever software available to me. Of course again, good expensive sound editors may have enhanced sound editing functions and noise reduction algorithms for own self vinyl transfer production. As long as one owns the record, I don't think it infringes any copyrights on this digital transfer, but ultimately it depends on the quality of software, source equipment, phono stage, and the PC rig. Last and not least is one's own skill in using the software to remaster the sound to best achievable. If not mistaken I did read a now defunct remaster label in USA who re-issues lost or never re-issued albums and they use custom PC based equipment and state of the art editors to do the remaster. I believe the PC's (computers rather) are all with run with special power supplies on pure noiseless DC or industrial battery installations. As you know our domestic PC's, however powerful they are, are plainly noisy AC switching PSU's and generate unacceptable signal to noise ratios that deteriorate the sonics to varying degrees ultimately. What the heck lah.. use the best and digitize your LP's to whatever you have on hand. There's only so much one can do.

Over the last 2 weeks or so, I have digitized some of my vinyl with an Edirol handheld recorder at 24bit/96khz. Then I archived it but "lower" some of it to 16bit for the iPod.

Yet to play my downloads on 24bit on my system but have done so with the iPod and I seem to think that it sounds better (the needledrops) compared to my CDs to iTunes (lossless).

I dunno lah..used to do this many many years back and most recent was 2 years back, just no comparison to the real thing, the LP and a good TT setup. CD transfer is merely for convenience sake.

Of course nothing beats the real thing.

Just so to be able to playback those recordings on an iPod in my car.

RobA4 wrote:Of course nothing beats the real thing.
Just so to be able to playback those recordings on an iPod in my car.

Yep, same thing here, rip to 8GB Pendrive, worth of tracks from all my ori cd's in wma format, play in car, no need for messy CD's all over the place inside the car. Wonderful convenience nowadays.

Yep the whole idea is to get as close a vinyl copy on CD. That's the topic guys.
Are there any CDR Recorder users reading this? Comments please.
And it's also true copying this or any other way via serious recorders, computers or other means onto CD does not mean you are extracting and copying the truest signals there contained in your vinyl. But it will give especially with CDR recorders what is actually produced by your analogue front end. So if you record from a Rega it will give you a Rega sound, a Linn then a Linn sound so on and so forth.
In some ways it actually improves on the source sound when you record with the amp volume completely turned down and you monitor the recording using headphones. Turntables and vinyl played on them absorb airborne feedback at normal listening levels from the speakers.

As much as I like to transfer from a Rega, but unless I own a quartz lock speed Rega, I won't. Especially older Rega Planar and P3, P2, P1 are slightly faster than 33.33 rpm, ending up with a slightly faster or higher pitch. Anyway, as I said, up to you all lah..depending on what you have on hand.

Yes i can confirm that even the latest P3-24 .. actually rotates faster than 33.333rpm. I just set up one over the weekend. The test stroboscope lines have a slight forward creep.


As for the digitization of Vinyl to be put onto CD, the digitization process is already the weakest link in the quantization & transcoding.
Naturally, the digitised signal will only be the best approximation of the source's front-end sound. So yes, if u use a Linn TT, you are digitising the Linn presentation, If Rega then u get "rega" sound and so forth.

Pro-Ject makes an entry level TT with built-in USB output, so can even directly hook up the TT to a PC and start to capture from there.

But as with all consumer based A/D converters it is nowhere close to industry standards like that Sony and Denon PCM A/D encoder recorders, or even the custom ones that Chesky uses.

Unless u happen to own a top dollar (or Pound Sterling) dCS A/D converter which is what was used to record the famous Zee Avi recordings.

Sure mate. There is weakness everywhere in our all home playing systems differing in degree with expenditure.

actually that Pro-Ject TT with USB is quite interesting. Might be good as a pure standalone unit, and just use it as a "vinyl digitizer". Let it run without it actually playing any music ... in stable room free from any acoustic vibrations and interference .. invest in a damn good cartridge + phonostage, it just might be a damn good tool !

What Rega sound or Linn sound?... don't forget there's also the make and quality of cartridge that contribute to a big part in its tone, character and resolution. Yes, many variables here.
I should think a quality solid state phono stage is more suited for vinyl to digital transfers due to better noise rejection than valve phono which inherently have higher noise figures however good they may be.

well, then just assume for the sake of discussion .. its a Linn TT with Linn arm and Linn cartridge... whilst the Rega TT is with a Rega arm and Rega cartridge lah, and add in Rega phono eletronics also.

For the sake of "brand consistency".

Happy ?

Lets better assume there's no consistency in this area. You know very well Linn Rega or any other make have various models each with some level of quality and finesse. Rega Apheta and their flagship phono are entirely a league above what an ordinary but very popular Planar 3 used to sound for 30 years. So how can there be consistency where Rega and Linn have improved (or still improving) their range of stuff rapidly now. Today's Linn Lp12 with their current Ekos arm and rest of their improved mechanicals are also vastly improved in many departments (so the owners claim)over 2 decades and are also a league above models that virtually remain little changed for nearly 2 and half decades. Perhaps what most percieve of Linn or Rega sound is likely models dating back in the 80's when the product was of some maturity. Having said that, there's still many who prefer the LP12 or the Rega before all the costly upgraded mechanicals.
Before I forget, the latest reincarnation of the Thorens TD160 (now with a HD and Rega arm???) is ENTIRELY a different animal from the 70's TD160. Thorens sound?..

ok fine .... then its that sound of that particular XXX brand TT with #### serial number on the chassis/plinth, ####### tonearm serial number, ##YYyXXX cartridge model manufactured on this particular time of day, month and year, with AAABBBCCC control number batch of cabling used from XXXYYYZZZ cable OEM supplier, put together by mr. JohnDoe's initials on the QA sticker.

So there you go ... its the sound that YOU happen to particularly own from all the potpurri of the shenamadig equipment you happen to have ! As unique as your own thumbprint or iris pattern!

Happy now ?

Errrrrr...buddy, I honestly won't really loose sleep over the technicalities of my own digital transfers, merely and plainty use what I happen to have and own, knowing very well its merely again for convenience having that album on CD. If I'm fedup with that CD after some time, out the window it goes like a Frisbie. Ultimately, I could be happy if I were pragmatic in practice.

Errr, guys.....Hehe. Getting heated up about gear aye? Honestly I was merely referring to any TT set ups in the basic and temporal sense. What I meant was as I have observed, the recorded CD would pretty much, by converting the analogue signals from your particular TT set up whatever it is, sound analoguey and almost identical to the sound as you would hear from your particular TT itself. The better the signal the better the sound.

Having said that I am of the opinion that different TTs do have their own character depending on your taste and expenditure for choice of course. The characteristic sound relies on the basic designer philosophy in the mechanical construction of the deck, i.e. plinth, sub-chassis, platter, drive and suspension systems. Arms, cartridge, power supplies etc are necessary ancillaries and are of course upgradeable, and therefore serve to get you the best from your deck, though there remains the compatibility factor and common sense. Conversely we don't go out and buy a tone arm and cartridge first then contemplate what TT to buy to mount them on.

Btw seen a few Pioneer PDR 509s and 609s on eBay and dirt cheap. Aww, give em a try instead of making theoretical opinions. If you don't like them I'd gladly buy them from you. I've a few ready customers hehe.

Cheers

Ooo.. that reminds me .. i'm low on CD-Rs already ....

Need to go get some Cheaperestest Nastierestest Brandless ones.

mugenfoo wrote:
Need to go get some Cheaperestest Nastierestest Brandless ones.

How come?..need to spite yourself ah?

Aaww Mugen,
I do own a classic Rega 3 with the original curved Rega tonearm(beautiful) made by for them by Audio Technica and an AT mm cartridge. And I use this old rig a lot besides my LP 12. Love em both.

Hi Wan, The classic Rega 3 arm is R200, made by a Japanese company known as Acos. I think they made a couple of models which rivalled the SME. Its a great arm, except for a quirk or 2.
I believe that combination went to contribute to the so called "Rega Sound". Of course, Rega strode off to greater heights till todate.
Thats a great 70's classic!..

Oh really? Someone told me they were sourced from AT. Yeah beautifully crafted arm and the details are so refined and polished. The whole deck was given to me last year by a friend who gave up on vinyl ages ago. There's no tarnishing or dirt on the arm whatsoever and the bearing is super smooth. The quirk you mentioned must be the removable headshell. I'd except it's sound as is though. Thanks mate

Yes, typically of Japanese who undoubtedly make beautiful stuff. Did you know Linn's Ekos and Ittok arms are also by the Japanese? but lets not get into that. The quirk is actually the anti-skate which can go defunct due to a tiny belt that disintegrates by itself after a quarter of a century. No spares I'm afraid.

Phew..... touch wood, so far so good, no such problem yet. Cheers cmboy

Wan Azami Hamzah wrote:Phew..... touch wood, so far so good, no such problem yet. Cheers cmboy

I hope so for you. Its not entirely realized just by turning the knob. Only when dismantling the bottom cover may reveal the truth.

cm,

Oh, I've a way of checking anti-skate setting. Just as I don't rely on the on-arm calibrations for tracking force but use a proper tool (Shure), for anti skate (checking everything else is level against planet earth) I use the empty end nearest the label of a few vinyls to set it until the arm is stationary before it hits the end groove. Did you own this arm before sir?

Yes I did, till I gave it away to a friend to cannibalize for parts. (it was really beyond economical repair).

My 2 cents' worth: -

I used to transfer vinyl to cdr when I still had the Clearaudio Reference TT (boomerang shape) with Insider Gold cartridge / Clearaudio Reference phono stage routed into a Krell KRC-HR pre-amp. Connect the pre-out directly into a Marantz DR6000 CD recorder using TDK blanks. The results are mostly satisfying for playing in the car, but when played in my home audio system, it doesn't sound like the real thing, not even close.

There is clearly reduced dynamics and layering. The only saving grace is that the analogue tonality remains intact. And for that I find it worthwile enough.

jteoh wrote:The results are mostly satisfying for playing in the car, but when played in my home audio system, it doesn't sound like the real thing, not even close.
There is clearly reduced dynamics and layering. The only saving grace is that the analogue tonality remains intact. And for that I find it worthwile enough.

Perhaps in not so many words, the final product is "watered down" to some extent.
Its actualy so evident when I play or compare Shadows 20 greatest hits LP and its re-issue on CD, considering they own the master tapes. I reckon EMI could have done better but obviously they didn't. OK ok..some may percieve comparison of LP vs CD re-issue, but point is LP to CD transfer could have been better?.. I really can't be sure.

jteoh,

You should be playing them back thru the Marantz.
Yes the object of the exercise is to have that analogue tonality on CDs in your car. And to be able to make compilations of songs from treasured vinyls, esp. those hard to find in CD formats.

cmboy wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:
Need to go get some Cheaperestest Nastierestest Brandless ones.

How come?..need to spite yourself ah?

not at all ... most happy to use them. Best bang for buck!! But why ? does it spite you instead?

jteoh wrote:My 2 cents' worth: -

I used to transfer vinyl to cdr when I still had the Clearaudio Reference TT (boomerang shape) with Insider Gold cartridge / Clearaudio Reference phono stage routed into a Krell KRC-HR pre-amp. Connect the pre-out directly into a Marantz DR6000 CD recorder using TDK blanks. The results are mostly satisfying for playing in the car, but when played in my home audio system, it doesn't sound like the real thing, not even close.

There is clearly reduced dynamics and layering. The only saving grace is that the analogue tonality remains intact. And for that I find it worthwile enough.

Thats why, the main (and perhaps only) reason of doing homemade transfer of vinyl softwre onto CDR purely for the convenience of media, to be able to play it at mobile locations as such and just to enjoy the music. No point trying to make any super duper high quality vinyl-rips and then wanting to compare it against the source just purely to get an orgasm in hearing the difference in sound quality.

It will be "watered-down", "thinner sounding", or whatever inferior-term description as being the case.

So, is it worthwhile enough the sacrifice the quality, but in return, you gain the convenience of format ? If you spend alot of time on the road and just wanna keep on enjoying the music, then this more than makes up for it already.

Also another reason why iPods have been such a global phenomenon. Everyone knows MP3s sound crap compared to CDs and even crappier compared to vinyl. But heck, your "music" goes with you to the gym, to the beach, to the hiking trails at some offbeat mountain, etc etc.

Guys,

I've a so called Dire Straits' 'Private Investigations' remastered CD, bought especially to compare to my old vinyl version bought in UK in the 80s where I was a student. Listening to the title track at louder volumes esp, the CD in comparison sounded awful, sharp and bright and lacking in body and atmosphere. Particularly annoying is the timbre of classical guitar. I happen to play guitar and had a band.
Then I copied the vinyl on my CD recorder and played the same just to compare if my purchase of the recorder made any sense. It more than did.

sometimes the CD mastering is also screwed up ...

Not so much the fault of the medium itself alone.

Recently bought Depeche Mode's latest album. Which is an LP that also contains a CD version. Best test case for format comparison.

If i take the LP as the "reference" sound, then the CD sounded overly bright, ear piercing and just plasticky (for lack of a better term).

Given the vast difference in tonality, i can only surmise that the the equalisation process for both at the LP and CDs are done separately.

Perhaps its for marketing reasons that knowing CDs will also be played in portable systems like car audio, boomboxes and the like, so they artificially pushed up the treble sliders? But, anyone's guess is as good as mine... unless the Recording engineer can answer what REALLY took place behind the scenes and how the LP got mastered vs how the CD got mastered.

If only iPod could play 24bit.

Mugen,

Think most people like orgasms, more so old balding...like me, having problems even to get an.....
But you're so damn right about portable music, CDs included, copied or otherwise, which can't be done with vinyl. Therefore this tread, Vinyl to CD.
Btw how the Linn coming along? You hvn't responded yet.
Cheers

The fun part of transfering vinyl to cd is that we can compile our favorite tracks from different albums into one cd. But of course good sound is the icing on the cake!

jteoh wrote:The fun part of transfering vinyl to cd is that we can compile our favorite tracks from different albums into one cd. But of course good sound is the icing on the cake!

ah yes .. true . This is also one damn good feature on home compilations. True for homeburn CDRs, MP3 on a USB-sticks, or even good ol' analog "compact cassettes".

Wan Azami Hamzah wrote:Mugen,

Think most people like orgasms, more so old balding...like me, having problems even to get an.....
But you're so damn right about portable music, CDs included, copied or otherwise, which can't be done with vinyl. Therefore this tread, Vinyl to CD.
Btw how the Linn coming along? You hvn't responded yet.
Cheers

Linn coming over during Raya weekend. It's gonna be fun.


Last weekend was a brand new out-of-the-box Rega P3-24 with Bias2 carty. Quite a letdown but i'll say no more and leave it at that.

Mugen,

Great to hear. Keep me posted on the progress. I'm contemplating to bring my old Linn ( currently Valhalla, LVX Plus )up to date soon elsewhere except stopping at an Ittok III when I find one.
Cheers mate.

yeah ... looking forward to seeing (actually to listen to) what all the fuss is about on the Linn that i would have the priviledge to setup & hand-tune from scratch.

This particular combo would have an ittok arm (but dunno which variant yet), and a Linn K9 MM carty.

After all, it is Stereophile's numero uno hifi gear in its all time top 100 list! Iconic!

You guys know any good audiophile shop who offers conversion of LP to CD, and does a good job at that ?

for those interested, u might consider Korg recorder MR-1 or MR-1000. both record into DSD format. might not be compatible with car cd-player. usually PS3 can read DSD. but of course u can convert to cd audio too.

i think DSD format will be one of the closest thing to vinyl.

cheers,
wps

junchoon wrote:for those interested, u might consider Korg recorder MR-1 or MR-1000. both record into DSD format. might not be compatible with car cd-player. usually PS3 can read DSD. but of course u can convert to cd audio too.

i think DSD format will be one of the closest thing to vinyl.

cheers,
wps

DSD as opposed to what other digital formats are you comparing with ?

hi mugenfoo,

at least for commercial equipment, i think DSD is one of the best.

from this graph:



seems like PCM???

what will u suggest as a good alternative??? thanks.

cheers,
wps

Graphs make very nice eye-candy ..... but what do your ears tell you ?