Need advice on the equipment

Hi,

I am new in Hifi scene and would like to get advice on my current system. Currently here are some of my equipments and would like to know which parts in this system causing bottleneck to the sound quality.

Speaker: B&W Nautilus 805
CD Player: Cyrus CD 8SE + PSX-R
Int Amp: Cyrus 8XPd + PSX-R
Conditioner: TACIMA 6-way extension
Main cable: Eccosse Big Red High HC for CD player, Int Amp and one PSX-R, 2nd unit of PSX-R is using Chord Power Chord
Interconnect: Chord Chorus 2
Speaker cable: Transparent HP14-4

I am thinking the speaker cable is causing the bottleneck and would like to know for this system setup, what kind of speaker cable I should get and where?

Thanks.

Since you are using Chord Chorus 2, why not acquire the Chord Epic speaker cable for synergy.

Authorised dealer is :

P.A.R.Audio

Telephone Number: +65 (0)6333 0360

This is at Sim Lim Square, Singapore.

Or another alternative:

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/CHORD-EPIC-TWIN-SPEAKER-CABLE-2-x-1-75m-AUDIOPHILE-/380248483947?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item588893686b#ht_3331wt_1026

you didn't say how you wanted your music sound - being a former user of cyrus pre n pwr + cdp + PXR F/B - i would say its quite musical for a small room - but detail n transparency greatly lacking , sound harse when loud . Try changing the power cord to the budget transparent HPPL cord for a starter. your power cords are all bass heavy. the interconnect to a used eccosse MA if you can find one ( smooth sounding ) . speaker cables temporary use first ( though i never like it ) can try the kimber 8 tc esp a used pair. hee hee no need run in . hope i can of help . James

Thanks all for the advices. All been helpful.

I have changed my speaker cable to Purist Musaeus and currently running in the cable for at least 1 week. Currently, I am quite ok with the sound but I did not audition a lot of system so I am quite satisfy with the current setup. Just need more advice to see any minor upgrade can improve the sound. Well, will wait for a week to run in then we will know.

Thanks

Hi,

I have another question.

My current system needs to plug in many cables, main cable, interconnects, etc. and the problem is I have limited space behind the CD Player so I have to stuff all my cables into one place. Does it affect the quality? All of my cables are shielded and high quality. Thanks

better don't run the RCA parallel to power or speaker cable, separate as much as you can.

Will try to but it is hard since I have already tidied up the cables yesterday night. To separate the RCA with main cable in such small space.

I thought the good main cables are usually properly shielded because every time the sales person use their test pen to detect the signal.

Will try to look at it tonight to see. Thanks

ASAP,

I think you are going around in Circles;forget about changing cables here and there;those are just tone control.What you need is to build a strong foundations for which your System will shine at its best.

1.Start with a dedicated Circuit.This is paramount and often neglected,and make sure your lines are non branched.Terminate with good receptacles.If Possible use US type or Schuko .Otherwise ,Get Hospital grade MK or Hager receptacles.

2.Pay attention to resonance.Save up and put ALL your Equipments on Finite Elemente footers.If you cand afford save up!!!or try the Herbie footers.


3.Sell ALL you cables and IC,and buy them from a single brand,ANY brand to form cable looms..

4.Throw away the TACIMA .Not good enougt for Hi Fi.You should look for USED decent Power Conditioners.

Truth be told,Your Electronics are more than decent;but the Tacima is choking them to death!!!Forgive my bluntness

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. I will look into your advice and see what I can do.

For point 1, what I am using now is TACIMA 6 ways connected to wall plug. All devices are using the TACIMA individual plug without branch out. I will try to change to other power conditioner but mind to recommend which is good? Power company, ISOTek or others?

For point 2, possible to explain more or easy to understand?

For point 3, I am using Eccosse Big Red for CD player, Int Amp and 1 Power Supply. The other power supply I am using Chord Main cable. For AVR Amp, I am using Chord Main Cable. For my OPPO Bluray player, I am using Clear Audio Main Cable. As you can see, Eccosse is one same cable for all the important devices such CD player, Int amp and power supply. Is it ok or is it critical to change? If to change all, money has to spent again.

For point 4, I will look into changing the TACIMA to power conditioners. Do you know when to get the used one? Thanks.

For point 4, if I get a 4 plug power conditioner and extend it using TACIMA, is it ok? Thanks

Any good brand for the power conditioner? Thanks

ASAP,

No,I do not think the TACIMA should go near your rigs at all.

I am a big fan of Passive power conditioners;Acoustic revive,Sound Applications,Tripoint Audio......But they are quite expensive.

I think You should be OK with a used Shunyata,CSE,Power Wings,Furutech or if you want to go further with a Torus.One brand I do not like though is Richard Gray,It change the sound too much.

why not try Contacting MR Gooi In Penang(Happy Audio),he normally has a few good Power Conditioners lying around and his prices are very reasonable

OK. I see. May I know where to get the power conditioner that you mentioned? I am staying in KL so it is difficult to go to Penang. Thanks.

ASAP wrote:Hi,
For point 2, possible to explain more or easy to understand?

Basically, tin is asking you to spend a lot more money. Finite Elemente products are ultra expensive.

A few golf balls under the equipment will address the resonance issue to a certain extent.

IC IC. I have a wood cone bought last time. Maybe can use it. But as you know Cyrus is stackable against each other, do I still need it?

My current setup is

CD Player | Cyrus Int Amp
PSX-R | PSX-R
Wood cabinet

Nothing in between. I just stack all devices on top each other. WIll this cause any problem? Or I just put my wood cone in between the CD player and PSX-R?

ASAP,

Obviously you have a MAJOR resonance problem.YOU SHOULD NEVER stack the equipments together.Of course ,there are cheaper ways to do,but with Finite elemente footers ,you do get what you pay for.....and it would be a good foundations to built your system,something you could always use forever.

With regards to power conditioning ,again they are quite fundementals too.,and you would be surprised how good Cyrus products are {they are brilliantly engineered if you ask me}once you feed them with good electrical juice....Infact why don't you buy the MIT power conditioner that is up for sale here in Hifi $sale...that would be a good start...


again nothing wrong with your setup,they are quite excellent,just coax them right and you will be dancing all night long

I should add Isotek power conditioners to the listI suggested.This is especially true if your wants to remain 'British" with regards to the Plugs and receptacles.

They are way underrated here and could be very good with your Cyrus.

Done. Bought the Isotek Aquarius and the JPS Main cable. Sound better!

ASAP wrote:Done. Bought the Isotek Aquarius and the JPS Main cable. Sound better!

Now that is fast and decisive. May I suggest getting a Finite Elemente pagode Master Reference rack as well for aesthetic and performance as well.

My only regret is buying a TAOC over the FM.

I dont think I have the space for the rack. Currently just nice.

ASAP,

Congrats.You are on your way to building a strong foundations for your system.

Actually ,The Next step you have to do is to change ALL your power Cords and cablings to Isotek.Again ,this is quite crucial.Just buy the Cheapest PC for your Electronics,The Cyrus are not that fussy to PC.Spend most on Speaker cables then I>C>It is crucial that you use a single brand to complete a cable loom.I encourage you to buy used actually especially with regards to Power cords.

With Resonance control devices,the most important part is the footers,not the rack....So save you money and buy a bamboo chopping board but the equipments should rest on the footers.Nothing beats Finite Elemente footers in calming the electronics IMO...

Will get the powercords later next week. I need around 11 powercords for 2 meters. Not sure they got stock or not. Also need to add one more Isotek Aquarius since 6 ways is not enough, need to add one more or two to drive the amp, AVR, and my LED 63 inches.

I am getting the cyrus power amp and the psx-r this week to drive the pre-amp. Thinking to change the speaker cable to better one. The purist audio is not up to the standard yet. Any idea for really good one?

ASAP, you are going about this all wrong. (BTW, I'm the guy who came over to your place to provide you some guidance last night). Even if you have money to burn, this is not the way.

All of your components including the Cyrus stuff and all the cables (power cords, interconnects and speaker cables) have hardly run in and you are already considering upgrading further? The Purist Audio SC is good enough for the B&W 805 and so are all the other cables for now. I beg to differ with one opinion here that it's necessary to have one brand for all cables. My 5 power cords, 2 interconnects and speaker cables are all different brands and I don't think I have issues caused by mixing and matching.

Like I told you, the quality of your sound is already pretty good and balanced, with no glaring issues with any of the frequencies. Your room acoustics also seem quite ok as you have enough soft furnishing and book shelves in the room to absorb/diffuse the sound.

Like I said, the main thing you now need to adjust is your sitting position (you need to get a listening chair that positions your ears around tweeter height) and also narrow the speakers and experiment with toe in. Until you optimise listener and speaker positioning, and let your components run in properly, and then start to really understand how your system is performing and which areas are lacking, there is really no point to be adding power amps and changing cables etc at this juncture.

And you still need to hone your listening skills as you are new to this hobby. You need to watch out for not only whether your sound is too bright or too warm, but also things like imaging/focus, transparency, bass depth, bass definition, bass tautness, soundstage depth, soundstage width, speed etc.

You seem to have fallen headlong into the component upgrade trap when you have yet to understand your current system's capabilities. Pull in the reins and let the dust settle for a while before you upgrade even one more item!

Hi ASAP,

I do agree with hifikrazy, i don't think your system have any problems. You got a very good system and need more time to listen. Cable is a alternative way (crossover) to fine tune your system but not over 25% of your system.

Save some money and look for B&W 801N or biamp could be batter way to go.

Wah, straight away upgrade from 805N to 801N?? Anyway, his room size not big enough to accommodate a floorstander as big as the 801N.

ASAP, i don't think u described how the sound of your system is 'bottlenecked' in the first place.

anyway, u r spending lots of money buying this and that n u r new to this game.

learn to be patient and chk out all the components available in the market one by one. go to the showrooms n listen to the systems, n ask plenty of questions.

take your time. otherwise u will end up spending lots of $$$. bear in mind that when u buy a component impulsively and then u fall out of love with it and then u want to sell it, u will end up losing lots of $$$.

I had the oppurtunity to hear the demonstartions on cable loom concepts during CES and was stunned by the discovery,the initial confusions was replaced by one of deep comprehension and never looked back....I know in Malaysia,the concept is unheard of ,Most people would use cables as tone control.This is true from the cheapest to the most expensive system.I believe this approach is WRONG and would cost a lot of money in the long run...Everytime you change your component{electronics}you have to change the cables,footers etc....

Once A strong foundations are built,paying proper attentions to power supply,Resonance control and cable loom concept,the overall components will shine true.You become less equipment-centric and you will find that the need for upgrades just dies off.You will also save up a lot in the long run....


I also dare those who love to use cables as tone control to try the demo for themselves.This is what you should do;assemble a mix of cablings of different brands,one which you think will give the best synergy;now assemble the other cable-loom from a single brand that cost 1/3rd or half of the price......now hear it for yourself .....


The First thing that one need to spend is building these foundations not go around upgrading path.

Hi Tin,
I find your post really interests me, could you give more detail? What is Cable loom concepts that you mention? How to do this?

Thanks again.
Bal.

Bal,

Check out Vertex AQ and Nordost websites.But more importantly,Have a listen for yourself;you will nwever look back.It is all the rage in UK and Europe now and Roy Gregory the Editor founder at hifi+ magazine(The Demo I heard was done by him)is at the forefront of it..

This will upset a lot of people ,but If you are just starting to build a system like ASAP ,this is the chance to get it right

Where could i listen to this?
Thanks again!

Bal.

Why using a same brand of cable will produce better sound??
Nordost has good concepts in their cable n they do it well that's why u use them all in your system will sound good.
I don't agree if u do it for other brand of cable. U may end up in a mass.

ASAP, I do think u need more time to understand your system n room acoustic, let it fully run in n then only decide which way u want to go.

Cheers,

Noodle88,

there are many reasons why single brand cable-loom will sound better,all explain ed scientifically ,but I will not tell you;do your own research.

the cable loom concept is true to almost all cables not just Nordost.

How can you have an opinion when you obviously haven't heard the cable-loom!!!!!

as they say it abroad,if you haven't heard it you do not have an opinion!!!

it is post like yours that make it difficult for people to build their system well-what i call armchair critics

Thanks for all the advice. I roughly get the idea on my system and direction. Whether to upgrade or not will entirely up to me to decide. I am glad to post this thread as more idea is sharing among us. Anyway for those msg me for giving advice. Thanks a lot. Will post my final specs and will last for few years.

Tim,

How about your equipment internal wiring? Do u use the same brand????
If not, how can u get your cable-loom???
It's just so funny, isn't it???

Noodle88,

IT is indeed the trend now for speaker manufacturers to use wire manufactured by reputable cable manufacturers.This cables are normally the cable of choice they use during Hifi shows.Here are some examples.

1.Kowero using Echole obsessions wiring.

2.Kharma using Siltech for internal wiring.

3.Marten using jorma internal wiring

4.Raidho using Nordost


and countless others!!!!!

tin, i'm just curious ....
if i have marten speakers (which use jorma internal wiring) does that mean i hv to use jorma speaker cables and interconnects for 'cable loom'?

let's say i hv kef speakers and i don't know what internal wire they use, how can i achieve 'cable loom'? even if i use, say, cardas speaker cable and interconnects, the 'cable loom' is incomplete and the cardas wires may not match the unknown internal wiring...

Sflam,

The examples I gave above was just to highlight the importance of cablings as seen by Speaker manufacturers nowadays,it was not the case before....

Yes,I would say if you use marten speakers the best loom would certainly b efrom Jorma,no doubt about that one...

Likewise ,you could easily contact the manufacturers and find out what type of wires they use internally,Cardas is the commenest brand use as far as I know.

Infact the Internal wire upgrades inside your speakers is amongst the best upgrades you could do for your speakers.....

Ah! Light bulb comes on in head!!!

So a cable loom really means using the same make of cables, from power cables all the way to interconnects and speaker cables as well as cables inside the speaker and crossover...

Is this correct?

Bal.

I think even different models by the same cable manufacturer also can be quite different in design and construction.

Bal,

The cable loom concept means using the same cables for power cords ,IC and speaker cables from The same manufacturers.This also includes power conditioners,that is why more cable manufacturers are going this route.The cables inside the speakers are not included,though more and more people are going thismanufacturers and consumers)having heard the massive benefits

The concept actually started from Japan .Those who use Shindo electronics know this quite well,Shindo Electronics users MUST use ALL shindo cablings ,if not you will not get the good Shindo sound.The same with ONGAKU ,the same cables are use even inside the electronics;Use other cables,and you Ongaku will sound like a mini compo....

In Europe This concept has been popularized By FM acoustics and Lavardin.With FM acoustics especially,you MUST use their cables to hear the True FMA sound.likewise with Lavardin.

In Malysia though,cables are just use as TONE controls.This is not the way....Too much hit and miss,and flawed scientifically.

Hifikrazy,which cable manufacturers has different design and constructions in their cables??!!i think your statement is misleading

You mean to say that if I use Nordost Odin interconnects (GBP12k) and cheapo Nordost Flatline speaker cables, I can still achieve cable loom concept because they are from the same manufacturer?

And then you have Van Den Hul Orchid interconnect with solid core centre conductor, and most of their other cables with multistrand centre conductor. Still same design and construction?

Yes ,To both statements.

In fact ,Nordost 'routinely mix the valhalla and Odin with their cheapest{Normally Power Cords] to demonstrate that.Astonishing ,isn't it?!!

Wouldn't Nordost be shooting themselves in the foot by demonstrating that? It would then be pointless for anybody to buy an Odin or Valhalla. Just go for all their cheapest model interconnect, speaker cable and power cord to achieve cable loom.

Hifikrazy,

I think you got it wrong.

Whati they are trying to show is that ,the Cable loom is fundemental to achieving good sound.OF Course,as you move up along the chain you do get improvements,law of diminishing returns at work,of course......

The Point is ,you would get better sound with the loom,despite using cheaper cables,than mixing megaexpensive cables of different make as "tone" control"

I see. It's an interesting concept. Based on the Point you mentioned above, it would be a very interesting experiment to see if you can actually get better sound by replacing a mix of high end cables from different manufacturers with all the cheapest cables from one manufacturer (say QED). This could actually mean that RM300k worth of cables could potentially be outperformed by RM1k worth of cables.

"This could actually mean that RM300k worth of cables could potentially be outperformed by RM1k worth of cables".......Definitely!!!.And that is the whole point of it all I am a believer now and never look back,and more and more people are moving on this direction

Geez... it's a concept that can save oodles of money if true. Any such test write up on the Internet? I would imagine it's a relatively cheap experiment to conduct if you just go for the lowest models in one cable manufacturer's range of products.

In fact, I think CMY has a system with a mix of cables from Siltech and ASI Liveline, including Siltech speaker cables costing >RM100k. Let me see if i can convince them to try replacing them with a complete set of entry level QED cables and see what happens.

Food for thought.

When i have the mullah(loot, booty, onkos, pitis, cash), i will give this a go. Seems reasonable enough.

Thanks again Tin.

Bal

tin wrote:

In Europe This concept has been popularized By FM acoustics and Lavardin.With FM acoustics especially,you MUST use their cables to hear the True FMA sound.likewise with Lavardin.

No wonder Quad equipments sounded the best with their supplied cables.

In this respect, Peter Walker must had understood this concept a long, long time ago.

This must be expensive hobby. So many things to change this and that. I remember before I got into this Hifi thing, I listen to more musics every night and day than after I got into this hobby. Now, I spend more time looking at forum and more time see review and more time to read hifi magazine and more time to spend money than I listen to music, browsing iTunes etc.