Tube amp recommendation

Hi All Sifus,
As I plan to go into tube world, so I need all sifus here to help up abit on it. I've no idea whats the different between push-pull, triode, ultralinear, single ended, difference of tubes(el34, kt88 & 300b) & etc? Can you all summary only it? What's the recommendation/selected brand and models? Mostly listen to jazz and vocal.
Thank you for your help!!!

Adrian

Hello my friend, welcome to this wonderful site for all information and help hifi.

This is a large area, and it may help if we know your budget, how much you would like to spend. Do you have any speakers already, or are you going to buy something new. Choice of speakers are critical, as sensitive speakers can be driven by 300B or 2A3 tubes for excellent results for your kind of music. For eg, my maggies will never be driven by the same tube amps i mentioned above. Look at today's sta news paper, there is a review of a tube amp..Sugesh gave it a pretty good review. But only if your speakers are sensitive enough.

Bal.

Currently I have b&w 703, 705, kef q35 & naim sbl. Possible to pair wt any tube amp? My budget roughly bout RM10k for the amp itself only.
Thanks bro for helping/suggesting/guide me.

Here are a few gross generalizations about tube amps. This is intended to be a newbie guide only, there are heaps of exceptions!

- Pentodes: inexpensive compared to triodes and make more power. Tend to have a more "solid state" sound than triodes. Ultralinear is a type of pentode circuitry where all five grids of the pentode are used. Pentodes can also be operated in triode mode by turning off two of the grids. In this mode, the amp makes less power. Examples of pentodes: EL34, EL84, KT66, KT88

- Triodes: more expensive than pentodes and make less power. Also more linear than pentodes, and each individual tube can usually handle more voltage - meaning you need fewer triodes in a power amp than pentodes. Examples of triodes: 300B, 845, 211, 833

- Single ended: can be single ended triode (SET) or pentode (SEP). This means the circuitry handles all of the waveforum - positive and negative. SET/SEP's make very little power, run very hot, tend to be expensive, and have bad distortion measurements - yet they sound wonderful.

- Push Pull: half the amp handles the positive part of the waveform, the other half handles the negative part of the waveform. Advantage is more power, disadvantage is crossover distortion (the positive and negative parts may not "join" properly). Crossover distortion is said to be minimal and virtually unmeasurable in modern PP designs - but do you believe them?

Other types of tubes which may be present in your amp:

- rectifier tubes (5U4, GZ37, etc). The purpose is to generate a DC current from AC. Cheaper amps have solid state rectification, more expensive amps tend to use tube rectification.

- input tubes (6SN7, 6SC7, etc). These are low level tubes. The purpose is to accept the signal and amplify it prior to the next stage, a bit like how a turbocharger compresses air before it goes into the engine.

The three most important determinants of the quality of the tube amp are:

1. Quality of the output transformer
2. Circuit design
3. Types of tubes used

You usually have no idea about the first two criteria because you can't tell. The purpose of the output transformer is to match the impedance of the amp to the speakers without sacrificing linearity and clarity - so it is a critical part of the amp. In fact, many people think that the characteristic sound of valve amps is due to the different output transformers used. Some dubious manufacturers try to pull the wool over your eyes by
marketing the amp as a 300B amp but specify it with a low quality output
transformer to save money. Put it this way - you know what tube you are getting because you can see it. You don't know what output transformer you are getting because you can't.

Anyway, hopefully I haven't confused you. Good luck with your search.

Good write up WongKK, thanks, it helped me too. Also i just google Wikipedia, typed in Valve amplifier and reached a pretty good write up there as well.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_amplifier

Bal.

Leben 300 + ProAc D1 or Leben 600 + ProAc D2 & u will be a happy person in no time.

Regards,
Joe Ling

What good explanation and example from WongKK... Make everyone "crystal clear" now. so, the final state here is - is there any specific brand or model you can recommend rather than I wasting time searching here and there finally come out nothing or kena "cheat" as you know all salesman out there very "sweet mouth" as they can psycho easily. :-)
Many thanks!!!

If jazz & vocals is your thing do audition single ended triode (SET) amps. Not all SET need high sensitivity speakers. Some are designed to handle those below 90db's to such as Audio Space AS-300B MKII & Sun Audio SV2A3.

My best suggestion is demo the amp first but do inform the seller that there will be no obligation.

Thanks Adrian. Sorry, but I don't give equipment recommendations. The reason is because my experience is limited to my system only, and my system and budget and taste is probably completely different to yours.

All I will say is this - "good practice" in designing valve amps is usually observed by a handful of reputable high-end US companies - Cary, VTL, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Manley, and BAT. If it was designed and made in the USA, and if they wind their own transformers, it will be OK. Their reputations depend on it.

Some companies are based in the West but outsource parts manufacture to China. An example is Primaluna. The amps are well regarded but it wholly depends on the QC of the company.

The cheapest amps are Chinese owned, designed, and made - MingDa, Consonance, Yaqin, Shanling, etc. Personally I would steer clear because a level of risk like that is unacceptable to me. Whether it is OK for you is up to you. You can certainly get lucky and get a good amp.

The last category are boutique amp manufacturers like Leben, Yamamoto, and Audio Note UK. I don't know much about them.

WongKK wrote: Cheaper amps have solid state rectification, more expensive amps tend to use tube rectification.

Mind to elaborate? At least to my limited understanding MC275, M9 etc. are with SS rectificaton but cost us arm and leg

Wong should have added "all things being equal" or perhaps "tend to" is also ok too.

MC275 or M9 are definitely not your normal "all things being equal" sort of amps.

rsbn589 wrote:

WongKK wrote: Cheaper amps have solid state rectification, more expensive amps tend to use tube rectification.

Mind to elaborate? At least to my limited understanding MC275, M9 etc. are with SS rectificaton but cost us arm and leg

Sure. Not all designers believe that valve rectification is superior to solid state rectification. I don't have an opinion, since I am not an amp designer Nor do I have any way of changing the rectification on my amps from valve to solid state to see if I can hear the difference myself!

However - one thing all cheap amps have in common is that they use solid state rectification. Valve rectification is generally a feature of more expensive amps. Perhaps it confers a performance advantage, perhaps they do it for marketing reasons. I don't know.

Remember - I said that these were generalizations - I was not making a rule that SS rectification is inferior to valve! From my reading, many designers see this as of minor importance when compared to the design of the output transformer.

Monday's Audiofile review of China made Yarland PRO200SE
nearly 9K??? eek!

I just realized that I paid RM71k for my amps ... if converted to RM!

Wow!!! RM71k? What amp is that? Can get a car for that money.
Which common hifi shop do selling tube amp?

Wow, RM71k for ur amps? Mind share with us what tube amp r u using?

Cary CAD-211AE amps. Paid AUD$22k for them a few years ago

There will always be people who'd pay huge sums for hifi equipment for ultimate satisfaction. Unfair to suggest if the expenditure equate to being better spent on something else.

Oh man, sweeeet! Wish i could own a pair of nice Cary's. But they won't drive my Maggies. Thankfully i don't have the mulla for something like this, but if i did, i WOULD dive right in. I mean, look, i drive a beat up old 3 series that i paid 60k many years ago, and it's just to get to point B. I mean, i don't sit there in the car and get goose bumps from the experience. But i bet a nice pair of Cary's will give me all the more reason to stay at home and get goose bumps.

But how to tell the wife this and still live lah?

Bal!

Cannot consider like that lah. Making AUD so have to use AUD equivalent. In terms of purchasing power, u paid only equivalent of RM22k leh. FYI, I got quoted RM63K for a pair of CAD211 founder's edition earlier this year.

WongKK wrote:I just realized that I paid RM71k for my amps ... if converted to RM!

Yah joe, very true.

Cary audio. I heard this brand, mind to know who carry this brand in malaysia? Might want to drop by and listen to it.

Cary Audio dealer is Music By Design in Jaya One. Last time I was there they only have tube push pull power amps. No integrates & no SET's.

i am using a unison research performance int amp. this ultra linear single ended amp uses 12au7 (ecc82) and 12ax7 (ecc83) as input tubes and KT88 tubes for output. i am planning to play upgrade the tubes. can anyone here teach me whats the functions of the 2 input tubes? which tubes should i change to get more audible improvement in sound?

Lamkochai, where you get your unison? A&L? How much? How's the quality?

Hi Lam, the purpose of the input tube is to accept the line level input and amplify the signal for the output tube. You can consider it to be the "intake manifold" of your power amp.

As to which tubes make the most difference when you change them - it varies from amplifier to amplifier. It is good practice to keep a whole set of spares ready in case any of your main tubes decide to go to tube heaven, so you can experiment for yourself which makes a bigger difference in your amp. But if I were you, I would try changing the input tubes first. It is usually much cheaper

I do have to warn you that your amp is a parallel SEP, so it is important that your KT88's are matched with a tube tester before you mount them on your amp. If just one of the tubes is mismatched, the power output of your amp will drop and distortion will go up.

One more question, sifus?
What about vacuum tube? Any different wt normal tube amp?

shs,

If u looking for push pull amp then can look for any commercial used/new amp depend on your budget, cheap 1 is those china made, later u might able to upgrade a bit by chang some part like tube rolling, cap and so on.

But u were looking for SET then u might consider to DIY for the reason as below:
1) simple circuit - mush easier to build compare push pull
2) can choose the good component u like especially the OPT, cap and tube.
3) for the same cost u pay for comercial amp, u might get better sound quality
4) since circuit is simple u can use direct connection which normally better sound than pcb.

For SET like 300B & 2a3, I will said it will performed better if driving speaker >93dB. unless u r using 845, 211 type of tube with higher power.

Hi to all sifu, where can I find diy kit for 211 or 845 tube amp? As I'm a newbie in diy audio, is it safe to diy 211/ 845 tube amp?

actually input tubes are not cheap also. i have a pair of genuine telefunken ecc803s (with grid plate) now fetching up to euro 1k in ebay.

Hi noodle, I don't think it is a good idea to DIY an 845/211 amp. These have plate voltages in excess of 1500V and are quite dangerous. To give you an idea, I recently nearly set my amplifier on fire by mounting the tube wrongly and causing a short circuit. I had to send it for repairs!

Audio Note sell kit amps based on the 300B and EL34 and should be safer for new kit builders - www.audionotekits.com

Thanks WongKK,

1500v dc? It's no something fun to deal with. But can the 300b/ el34 kit amp drive my TAD TSM300? Which is 86db only.

Probably not. Unless you like listening at very soft volumes In fact even a push-pull 211 may have trouble driving your speakers. They were designed for solid state amps, so that's what I would use.

bal wrote:Hello my friend, welcome to this wonderful site for all information and help hifi.

This is a large area, and it may help if we know your budget, how much you would like to spend. Do you have any speakers already, or are you going to buy something new. Choice of speakers are critical, as sensitive speakers can be driven by 300B or 2A3 tubes for excellent results for your kind of music. For eg, my maggies will never be driven by the same tube amps i mentioned above. Look at today's sta news paper, there is a review of a tube amp..Sugesh gave it a pretty good review. But only if your speakers are sensitive enough.

Bal.

The Most Important Point, Bal got it right.

Some amps can't be group together even if use the same design. Believe me, I have owned 5 single ended amps. Some can wallop even those 88db speakers playing those modern jazz like Rippingtons & Acoustic Alchemy !

My best advice is go & have listen to various setup. All this technical mumbo-jumbo will make u more confused without experiencing first hand.

Adrian,

What do u use for speakers ?

Regards,
Joe Ling

I have paired as-300bmkii with b&w dm4 & cdm bookshelf at 89 & 88db. Also paired with Harbeth compact 7. I have heard the 3 watts Almarro a205 el84 powering the jr149 ls3/5a cousin blow dynamics so gutsy that makes a 60 watts solid states cried for mercy !

But have you heard a sensitive speaker driven by a very powerful solid-state amp before ? Say Tannoy Lancaster driven by Krell FPB600. Or Odeon horn driven by Odyssey monoblocs.

Joeling,
Temporary I have Naim Sbl wt me, home theater speaker b&w 703 & 705 and also very old kef q35. Do you think can be driven by tube amp?

Adrian

hasnul wrote:Some amps can't be group together even if use the same design. Believe me, I have owned 5 single ended amps. Some can wallop even those 88db speakers playing those modern jazz like Rippingtons & Acoustic Alchemy !

My best advice is go & have listen to various setup. All this technical mumbo-jumbo will make u more confused without experiencing first hand.

Hi Hasnul, as i have very inefficient speakers, could i tap on your experience to know which SET amp can drive 88db amp... so if ever i want to try i might as well try the one you recommend first.

many thanks,
Bal.

Wongkn,
no unfortunately. Only heard with tubeys.

Bal,
To be on the safer side it would be the as300b mkii or Almarro a205. However, this are based on my general knowledge only. It all ultimately lies down to if both amp & speakers matches each other.

This is one of my kinda weird experience : I once owned the super hard to drive lst audio basik monitor. So stubborn that even the mac ma6200 ss at 60 watts can't drive them !! But , the china made Audio space galaxy el84 pp at 15 watts can drive excellently !! Go figure !!

It is OK if you have not heard it. I ask because someone who have may have different requirements and expectations (compared to yours) with regards to what is expected from using SETs and other type of tubes amps to drive speakers, even supposedly very easy to drive or very efficient (actually they may not be exactly the same as your experience itself shows).

Unfortunately the fact is we are not always fortunate enough to hear every combination in this world, especially those truly high-end ones. However, my two examples are real life ones and in the case of the Tannoy, I myself was shocked at how a pair of supposedly efficient easy to drive speakers came alive with the Krell.

A lot depends on the listener's music preferences as well as listening tolerances. Some people realy don't like to play loud or even near live levels of loudness. Others demands dynamics and power like real live performance. It makes a difference if the music mainly listened to are simple acoustics instrument played softly backing up a single singer verus hard rock or symphonic orchestras etc.

It would be important for the OP to bear all these in mind but I am not putting down any recommendations here at all, ALL of them given so far are good experiences and are quite excellent advices that the OP should keep in mind. I just thought I will help give him a wider perspective.

hasnul wrote:Wongkn,
no unfortunately. Only heard with tubeys.

Bal,
To be on the safer side it would be the as300b mkii or Almarro a205. However, this are based on my general knowledge only. It all ultimately lies down to if both amp & speakers matches each other.

This is one of my kinda weird experience : I once owned the super hard to drive lst audio basik monitor. So stubborn that even the mac ma6200 ss at 60 watts can't drive them !! But , the china made Audio space galaxy el84 pp at 15 watts can drive excellently !! Go figure !!

Thanks Hasnul, much appreciated.

Bal.

Wongkn,

I completely agree with u. I personally like to listen loud. I've never heard those fullrangers with ss. IMHO perhaps the crossovers balance things up. Everyone here is sharing experiences after all.

Bal,

Best bet if u can bring ur speakers to try out at the sellers venue. Too bad here we don't initiate like what's done in the US : 5-10% restocking fees for returned goods if ur not happy with it.

bal wrote:

hasnul wrote:Some amps can't be group together even if use the same design. Believe me, I have owned 5 single ended amps. Some can wallop even those 88db speakers playing those modern jazz like Rippingtons & Acoustic Alchemy !

My best advice is go & have listen to various setup. All this technical mumbo-jumbo will make u more confused without experiencing first hand.

Hi Hasnul, as i have very inefficient speakers, could i tap on your experience to know which SET amp can drive 88db amp... so if ever i want to try i might as well try the one you recommend first.

many thanks,
Bal.

Bal, what's your budget? If you can, try a Cary Audio 300B SEI. It's simply magical and I have even driven a pair of Maggies 1.6QR with them before. The little Cary seems to be abe to deliver a lof of current perhaps due to the 200% over specced transformers to handle the overruns. If you can stretch a bit further and want SET, then hit the CAD805AE that gives you the flexibility to "choose" the power delivery and tonals that you may crave for from time to time. Let me know if you want to get in touch with the lads.

Best wishes.

Whether a deceptively small amp can power your speakers depends on whether the speakers were designed to the "voltage or current paradigm" and whether the amp is a voltage amp or current amp. Take a look at this article by Ralph Karsten (designer of Atma-Sphere OTL amps): http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0707/

And brabusm ... I second your recommendation The Cary 300SEI and 805AE are beautiful little amps. I used to own the 805AE and have a friend with the 300SE.

SEI 300 is nice. Ive listened to the limited edition with gold faceplate+KR Audio 300BXLS at 15 watts I think. It was sent to Music By design years ago for service. Very smooth & musical sounding. Lack grunts of Cayin 300b amp+TJ Meshplates but due to different speakers so the comparison is not accurate.

I wonder a used Cary 300B SEI cost how much these days ?

The Cary 300SEI is an integrated amp, with both channels in the same chassis.

The Cary 300SE is a dual monoblock power amp. There is one on Audiogon at the moment for USD$2000. Unfortunately, appears as if the seller won't ship overseas. Also - 110V! http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1310184129&/Cary-cad-300se-signature-monob

A monoblock at usd2k ? That's very reasonable !! I fear the shipping costs might be about rm2k if he's willing.... Gulp ! I surrender la. Can't afford it.

I just browsed for audionote kit 1 300b. Priced at usd 2190.00 !! Sigh !!

hasnul wrote:SEI 300 is nice. Ive listened to the limited edition with gold faceplate+KR Audio 300BXLS at 15 watts I think. It was sent to Music By design years ago for service. Very smooth & musical sounding. Lack grunts of Cayin 300b amp+TJ Meshplates but due to different speakers so the comparison is not accurate.

I wonder a used Cary 300B SEI cost how much these days ?

Hi Hasnul,

I sold mine for S$4500 last year and misses it dearly. If I have a chance, I will repurchase it again. It sounds best with a pair of WE 300B, 2 Gre-pin CV181 and 1 tungsol 6SN7.

Best wishes.

B