Turntable options

Vinyl newbie looking for turntable recommendations for a minimalist bedroom hifi. I'm looking to buy something new and easy to set up / maintain. The new Rega RP3 looks good but I'm leaning towards the Thorens TD-309 as I'd rather not be tempted to upgrade too soon. The room layout can handle a wall mounted shelf if needed.

Is there anything else worth considering around the RM5k mark with an arm and cartridge? I've seen Clearaudio but the local pricing makes the Thorens seem like a much better buy. Are Michell and Roksan available locally?

Are you going to set up the turntable yourself ? Do you have the skills ? If you do, then you might also want to consider used. A used Linn LP12 with Grace 707 arm and a basic catridge was recently going for around this price range as I remember.

Go for the Thorens dude.... its much better built than a Rega.

http://www.stereophile.com/stephenmejias/the_thorens_td_309/


Roksan is available but the local disty doesn't stock any display items. They only bring in on a pre-order basis.

WongKN wrote:Are you going to set up the turntable yourself ? Do you have the skills ? If you do, then you might also want to consider used. A used Linn LP12 with Grace 707 arm and a basic catridge was recently going for around this price range as I remember.

Haiyoh uncle .... always also LP12 LP12 LP12.... You not Sien, I also sien already lah ... so square, so dated, so boring!

I'm looking to buy something new and easy to set up / maintain. The new Rega RP3 looks good but I'm leaning towards the Thorens TD-309 as I'd rather not be tempted to upgrade too soon.

bro, go for the rega rp3.



mugen,

i know u will quickly say: "aiyo, always also rega, rega, rega. you not sien, i also sien..."

sflam wrote:

I'm looking to buy something new and easy to set up / maintain. The new Rega RP3 looks good but I'm leaning towards the Thorens TD-309 as I'd rather not be tempted to upgrade too soon.

bro, go for the rega rp3.



mugen,

i know u will quickly say: "aiyo, always also rega, rega, rega. you not sien, i also sien..."

Exactly !!!

OK la, since you put it that way, let's go for Clearaudio.

"aiyo, always talk about clearaudio here, clearaudio there, I also sien already"
(I noticed must have 3 emoticon one)

Makes me think of the Roksan Radius V that I wanted to buy last time. It was a used unit and the price was well within the RM5k barrier. It was snapped by someone before I could get there.

That's why I always tell you if you want it, must buy asap. Cannot wait one. The Goldmund Studio is still available you know. It used to be one of the top turntables during the older days. It can still more than hold its own against the newcomers even today. Comes with arm. Available at you-know-where !

Hmm, the Thorens also comes in a nice RED which matches my Merlin TSMs





The RP3's new colors are white, silver and grey.

What phono stages should I be looking at? Haven't decided which amp to use - have a Cyrus 8vs2, Bel Canto S300i and a Perreaux R200i to play with, but none have built in phono stages.

Ah, yes .. the importance of a good phono cannot be over-emphasised.

Basically, you wanna get a Phono stage that offers you the following:
1) Should have some sort of Gain adjustment, preferably via discrete selectors or switches. If it's gain is adjustable via a continuously variable potentiometer, that's just inviting more noise and other gremlins to pollute the delicate low level signals.
2) Should have some degree of capacitance loading. You never know when you might need to try different settings for cartridge matching.
3) If you're into MC carts, then the Phonostage must offer a generous selection of resistance loadings. Again, for cart matching.
4) It should have multiple curve settings, if you happen to have a collection of records from the 50s and 60s era.

Items 1,2 are pretty much the bare essentials.
Item 3 is only applicable if you're into MC carts, or if you think you'll eventually "go higher end" and end up with a MC cart. So you won't need to change phono stages in the future.
Item 4 is only relevant if you've got a stash of old records handed down from family , relatives, friends, or you like go to vintage-hunting, etc etc.

BTW, Phono stages are a peculiar breed of hardware. The one with the highest price tag does not necessarily mean its the best. I've seen/heard a few supposedly high-end Phono boxes get trounced by even some simple local/DIY phono stages in terms of sound quality, cartridge compatibility and just plain value-for-money basis.

And pay particular attention to how your overall system is connected up especially its power connections. Hum (from the 50Hz AC ) is a potentially massive problem especially for MC carts and phonos.

Hi J...

MF's views can be used as a "yardstick" to get the right Phonostage for yourself.

Coming to Phonostage....had a fair share of try outs with the commercially available Phonostages. Landed with the CA640P which comes with MM / MC capabilities.

A very well rounded Phono but it even gets better when its warms up to the occassion. If only it had the adjustable cart load options... but then it may cost an arm and a leg...or it may not....

You should take a look at the locally developed Phonostage from Frank Accoustics - Pipit 22 series. Lots of adjustment capabilities to match the cartridges. A very downright simplistic design and build but the thought thats been put into it is awesome . Next on my list.

The Link :http://fv-euroaudio.blogspot.com/

Have a listen yourself. Enjoy the hunt.

Cheers

WongKN wrote:That's why I always tell you if you want it, must buy asap. Cannot wait one. The Goldmund Studio is still available you know. It used to be one of the top turntables during the older days. It can still more than hold its own against the newcomers even today. Comes with arm. Available at you-know-where !

Dei, my TT quest is already accomplished lah..



I also prefer a phono which has more flexibility in terms of MC/MM options, loading and gain adjustments. Coz you never know if you are going to change your cartridge/settings in the very near future.

Thanks for all the good advice. I should definitely look at phono stages which allow for use of an MC cartridge in the future. The other thing I see is that cartridges can have drastically different output levels, so how much gain on the phono stage is 'enough' to cover a good range of cartridges?

Gain on the phono stage rated to 75~76dB gain should be enough to accommodate low output carts down to about 0.2mV.

I used to own a Frank Pipit-1 and a Pipit-2 but have since sold them off and there are always buyers looking out for these units. For its price range, its very hard for most branded phonos to come close to its performance.

The next big can of worms would be how well you can get your turntable/cart/arm combo to match each other, and properly set-up.

The review is old .. dating back to 1999 and the link to the original page is broken. But here's a Google Cache'd version of it .



Review





Pip-ing hot phono




A rare guest appearance by the irrepressible ANDREW WONG ...
what a lark, eh? More chirpy tales from the man with a Korg Trinity, so
get your earplugs now as he introduces an enterprising local effort
The PiPit phono stage, wholly conceived and made in Malaysia by Frank
Acoustics, is "designed to extract music from your cherished collection
of LPs without degrading delicate musical information coming from your
cartridge," states the manual. Ambitious words indeed ....
(The PiPit is the work of Frankie Voon, about whom we should be hearing more later; the product first surfaced at AV Fest 98.--Ed.)
Features
Right from powering up, the PiPit
oozes the sort of appeal that's usually associated with highly-priced
products--blue LED and impressive build-quality. Not that blue LEDs are
unaffordable, so why doesn't my Audiolab amplifier sport a blue power
indicator instead? (Perhaps because it has a red one?--Ed.).
Styling on this dual-mono phono stage is minimalist, just the way I
like my components--black enamel coating all-round except for the
reflective face-plate. The gold-plated RCA terminals at the rear are in
separate pairs, for moving coil (MC) and moving magnet (MM) inputs, with
a grounding post sited between them. The PiPit is powered by an external supply unit, connected to the phono stage by a four-pin DIN-like cable.
The MC stage sports class A, wide bandwidth FET circuitry while the MM
stage operates on a 5534 op-amps design. Internal build quality is of
very high standard, with parts from the likes of Farnell and RS.
Ultimately, it's nitty-gritty stuff, like ferrite rings attached to
critical low-level components, that reflects a true sense of attention
to detail. Even some resistors have miniature ferrite rings running
around their respective input and output wirings! Every component either
runs through the blue PCB or are hard-wired. The only cables you see
are those that connect the sexy blue LED. Everything inside is so neatly
laid out that it reminds me of the innards of Sutherland products.
The PiPit
is extremely versatile, having a wide range of MC and MM input
impedance selections, with factory settings of 100 Ohms and 47 kOhms
respectively. Selection of stages and loading are done under the hood
via DIP switches; the procedure is a cinch unless you're one of those
who isn't sure what the "power" knob on a preamp does. I would prefer
better accessibility to experiment with different loads ... and don't
bother looking for the power switch because there isn't one.
Performance
Partnering equipment for this review were an analogue combination of
the Rega Planar 3/RB300 arm/Sumiko Blue Point Special MC cartridge;
Unison Research Feather 1 preamp/Power 35 power amp/Simply Phono phono
stage; Audiolab 8000A integrated amp; Harbeth HL-P3 and Robertson Audio
Silver 20s speakers, all wired via Cardas Crosslinks and QED Qudos.
Interconnects were Crosslink and van den Hul D102 MkIII.
Frankly
(and no pun intended!), it was rather impossible to comply with the
manufacturer's recommendation that the unit be run in for at least 1,000
hours, so as to "reach its full performance level" ... that would have
meant having AudioFile compensate me with a RM25,000 Clearaudio Insider cartridge (Oh, do have a Ferrari instead! _ Ed.).
However, I managed approximately 50 hours of break-in time (take note
of this, boss!) before the review proper; I think this was sufficient.
Straight from the box, the PiPit
sounded uninviting and rough at the edges at times. Although it
displayed a great sense of depth and stage width with familiar material,
the PiPit wouldn't
have made it in my books at this point. Maybe also because I was
comparing it with the Simply Phono, which costs considerably more.
But many run-in hours later, I simply could not believe what I was
hearing. Throw anything at it--high resolution recordings, wide
bandwidth programmes, rich low-level pressings, whatever--and the PiPit really chirps!
O Danny Boy by
Jacintha Abisheganaden was tremendously well reproduced. I've heard the
same record on a Clearaudio Reference turntable (with the Clearaudio
Insider MC cartridge) more than once, and I dare say it was close
enough. I know I sound like a hyperactive kid but that's exactly how
you'll behave when you hear what the PiPit
can do. Although my ego would make me want to shell out big bucks for
say, a Balanced Audio Technology phono stage, I simply can't see the
logic in spending more if you want true value for your hard-earned
dough. The fact is, the PiPit made me listen to O Danny Boy endlessly.
Using a midrange champ like the HL-P3 speakers on tow, the mids and
highs were dressed in their Sunday best while soundstaging was nothing
short of fabulous. You hear every signal, clear and crisp, with
excellent timbral qualities. Bass was taut and undemanding, keeping
rhythm without asking for centre stage.
Voices, from Carol Kidd's melting ballad I'II Be Tired Of You to Jennifer Warnes' Famous Blue Raincoat,
were well reproduced, although in a different fashion from the built-in
phono stage of the Audiolab. Running the high-output Blue Point Special
via the MC stage at the standard setting of 100 Ohms gave me the best
impression of the PiPit, although more demanding cartridges may require extended experiment.
Not without fault, the PiPit
can still sound edgy at times and doesn't have a fantastically low
noise floor, although careful thought over foot-fall and component
isolation would help. In all fairness, the PiPit
certainly isn't in the same class as the Nagra PL-P phono sage, but it
will do justice in a well-balanced, high-end (not necessarily
high-priced) system.
Conclusion
The PiPit
provides a level of musical experience that is often missing in
competing products costing a lot more. Given its current asking price,
one should throw caution to the wind and step up to superior sound--get
yourself a turntable and the PiPit. As for me, I'm not returning the PiPit; it's staying in my primary system.
For your enlightenment, the PiPit's manual also says, "... the phono
stage shares the same namesake as that little sparrow whose melodious
chirping is such a welcome relief from the pressures of our daily life."
Corny to the core, but how true.
Model: Frank Acoustics PiPit phono stage
Price: RM799
Review sample courtesy of FRANK ACOUSTICS (Frankie Voon, 012-298-1011, e-mail frankvoon@yahoo.com), distributor queries welcome, one hears.
For: Everything one should expect of a good phono stage can be found on the PiPit.
Against: At the price, nothing.

The Goldmund Studio is still available you know. It used to be one of
the top turntables during the older days. It can still more than hold
its own against the newcomers even today. Comes with arm. Available at
you-know-where !

Hi Wong! I understand that this Studio uses a Direct Drive motor?

Yes, it does indeed. The turntable is suspended (by springs) inside an outer chassis. It was one of the top turntables last time, accepted to be TWO levels above the LP12 (oooppsss, here I go again with Linn ! ) and above tts like Roksan, Pink Triangle, Oracle, VPI, and so forth. At that time the top turntable in the world was the Goldmund Reference, which was built according to mechanical and civil engineering concepts. This Studio borrowed concepts from the Reference.

This particular unit comes with a unipivot arm, forgot the brand, but I forgot if the catridge is included or not. Asking price is around 11k I think though negotiable to a degree I believe.

car o scope wrote:

WongKN wrote:That's why I always tell you if you want it, must buy asap. Cannot wait one. The Goldmund Studio is still available you know. It used to be one of the top turntables during the older days. It can still more than hold its own against the newcomers even today. Comes with arm. Available at you-know-where !

Dei, my TT quest is already accomplished lah..

Not planning for any upgrade kah ?
About the phono stage, I got some new shit-stirring news. Tell you about it tomorrow.

hi MF

what's the phono & cart. you using now? me also itchy to try other phono stage although the preamp has a decent built-in one.....

mugenfoo wrote:The next big can of worms would be how well you can get your turntable/cart/arm combo to match each other, and properly set-up.

Borrowing MF's quote :

This is one juicy / sweaty thingy that you would definetly enjoy. Get your self a good "Stylus Force Gauge". Average price....Amazon.com or ebay. Experiment and derive the various SQ.

Something local and immediate...try the shops that are selling weighing scales....you can get a electronic unit for a decent price. Try searching at "Mudah.com.my" and you will get a few hits.



Cheers

WongKN wrote:Not planning for any upgrade kah ?
About the phono stage, I got some new shit-stirring news. Tell you about it tomorrow.

Hahahaha.. WongKN, as usual, you always have poisons waiting for me.



Honestly, I will not upgrade my TT as I am very satisfied with the one that I am having right now.

A Rega P3 is the best starter TT these days, pretty much PnP.

Get the Exact 2 cart plus their Fono and you are good to go.

This coming from an LP12 fan.

Well I might get chucked out fer saying this, but I'd shamelessly advocate the Lenco L75.



I used to have a LP12/valhalla/Ittok but sold it as soon as I heard a Lenco which IMHO had a lot more wow factor even in stock form (ie no plinth, ori arm, crap cart).



After some re-plinthing and plonking in a RB250 I must say I haven't looked back since...



In fact, I know a local hi fi dealer who's buying any L75 he can get his hands on, while he's selling new turntables. Go figure...

L75 has its own charm .... idler drive gear system.

Just like how some people just love the flat-4 gurgle of a WRX-STI or the electric motor smoothness of a Wankel in a RX7/RX8.

Lenco L75 was a great workhorse of numerous record shops in this country.

This TT was downright musical and enjoyable in its heyday as far as I remember, not to mention reliable everyday the shop was operational.

Great choice machine in its heyday!

mugenfoo wrote:L75 has its own charm .... idler drive gear system.

Just like how some people just love the flat-4 gurgle of a WRX-STI or the electric motor smoothness of a Wankel in a RX7/RX8.

Belt Drive, idler, direct drive...yeah, to each his own..heh heh

wingman wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:The next big can of worms would be how well you can get your turntable/cart/arm combo to match each other, and properly set-up.

Borrowing MF's quote :

This is one juicy / sweaty thingy that you would definetly enjoy. Get your self a good "Stylus Force Gauge". Average price....Amazon.com or ebay. Experiment and derive the various SQ.

Something local and immediate...try the shops that are selling weighing scales....you can get a electronic unit for a decent price. Try searching at "Mudah.com.my" and you will get a few hits.



Cheers

Actually, a complete repertoire of special tools would entail the following items:
1.- Stylus force gauge. The Shure SFG-2 is a mechanical unit thats quite decent. Digital scales can range from cheap-n-nasty China made units to ultra precision scales good enough for you to weigh highly illegal white substances that entails automatic capital punishment upon conviction.
2.- Protractor or alignment gauge.
3.- Circular bubble leveler.
4.- linear bubble leveler.
5.- Test record. (E.g. one that has test tones to set channel balance or Azimuth, VTA and more importantly: anti-skate).
6.- Oscilloscope / RTA Spectrum Analyser.

OK ok , item 6 may be an overkill for most people... but when used in combination with the test record ... this is a real class-act for the ultimate TT setup.

Ways to get an oscilloscope/Spectrum analyser without breaking the bank: Buy an RTA software and run it off your laptop/PC. Make sure you do all the internal auto-correction routines to compensate for the PC's sound card inputs and you're all set to go. You might need to get (or DIY your own) some custom loopback or audio patchcords but its all part of the fun.

Or for the ultimate cost-no-object homebrew Audio RTA scope, get a studio quality WEISS ADC2 to digitize the analog signals and then feed 24/96 into your laptop/PC's SPDIF input (assuming your computer rig can accept SPDIF at 24/96) and running the appropriate software of course.
Otherwise, just rely on the PC's analog inputs and make sure its calibrated/compensated for its own response curves.

For Windoze lovers, there's True RTA from www.trueaudio.com


For Mac cultists, there's SPECTRE from www.audiofile-engineering.com


Naturally, the Mac platform always looks sexier.

There are numerous other equivalent software as well. But these are the 2 that I have used to great success.

How is the spectrum analyzer used for turntable setup?

The SPECTRE app is interesting, I've been looking for a Mac-based RTA app to look at the response in my car - what measurement hardware have you used with it?

Re. using a Spectrum Analyser for TT setup, its too lengthy to describe here. Alot of hands-on experience actually.

For Measurement hardware if you wanna scope your car's in-room response , try looking for a condenser mic.
Accurate, but quite a hassle because it needs 48V phantom power and a mike preamp (good if the power injector and preamp is combined in a single unit for convenience) to work. Unlike Karaoke mikes that's just plug-n-play.

A simple Mike preamp can be a Behringer MIC100 or MIC200 portable unit. But if you wanna do in-car measurements .. you'll need to get some battery powered mic-preamp. Something like a AKG B29L unit.

Or get a one box solution ... XTZ.
Not very high resolution, but should suffice for basic baseline measurements.

www.acousticfrontiers.com/XTZ-Room-Analyzer.html

All this no point if you don't have the right curves. RIAA curves, that is ...

Ah, but thats where the "Curve Linearizer" comes in !

Well, I have an Apogee Duet and Behringer ECM8000 lying around so that should work pretty well then?

How about test tone generation?

mugenfoo wrote:Ah, but thats where the "Curve Linearizer" comes in !

The correct term to use is 'phono linearizer'.
http://www.fmacoustics.com/set_domestic.html

j22 wrote:Well, I have an Apogee Duet and Behringer ECM8000 lying around so that should work pretty well then?

How about test tone generation?

Yes the Apogee & ECM8000 is perfect for the job.

But if you are super-kiasu, you can buy a calibrated ECM8000 (from Cross Spectrum Labs, for eg. ) and load the calibration file into your RTA software so that it will compensate for microphone characteristics as well.



For test tone generation, try this program called FuzzMeasure. It will do a sweep and then plot the response curves. FuzzMeasure is also recommended by the Spectre web page as a Room measurement software.

WongKN wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:Ah, but thats where the "Curve Linearizer" comes in !

The correct term to use is 'phono linearizer'.
http://www.fmacoustics.com/set_domestic.html

Whatever ... it still just an over-glorified tone control knob.
Thats what it is !

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

I may be tempted to sell my LP12 as I was planning to keep it for my kid. Valhalla + Ittok + trampoline + original box/packaging intact. It's a one owner unit from the past but is packed up in the store room as I don't have space to utilise two units. It's musical unlike the newer reincarnations however this is a matter of taste I must say. Let me know.