is anti-skating needed?

ok vinyl addicts,

after many years playing around with cd, i hv been lured to go back to vinyl.
so i have picked up a rega exact cartridge to replace the dynavector (with broken needle) in my ancient rega planar 3 that has not been used for years.
so i hv wiped the dust from the turntable, chked that it still spins (i hv not oiled it for years) and the belt is still ok (changed once long time ago).

my question is: in this day and age, how important is anti-skating? do i still need to use it or shall i just increase the tracking force?

i hv not been following developments in the vinyl world. what are the latest views on anti-skating?

If anti-skating wasn't important or has been obsoleted, modern and current manufacturers like Clearaudio, Graham, Rega, etc etc would not have bothered to built it into their arms anymore. Why add all the unnecessary complexity?

Does this answer your question ?

sflam,
It is there for a reason.. so use it!

Yup, I use it too. A little weight hung on a string to counter the skating forces which whould otherwise force my Kugelarm to skate inwards.

In practice, one channel is louder than the other until I get the hang of hanging that counterweight correctly. A well hung antiskate device will result in both channels with equal loudness and diminished distortion. Some antiakate devices don't have strings and weights as they're magnetic and then there are even more elaborate types of antiskates out there which goes to show how important they are.

Not sure if the linear trackers have antiskates though. I inherited a Studer Revox turntable with linear tracking in the 1980s but I've long since thrashed it. I was a juvinile then. Still can't forgive myself for that.

linear trackers don't have antiskates because they do not suffer the centripetal forces compared to a pivoting angled tonearm.

However, linear trackers are not truly horizontal but rather they should be Slanting slightly down towards the spindle end. This is to "Assist" the cartridge to glide better towards the centre since the record grooves are also spiralling inwards.

This would be the closest similarity to a pivoting arm's anti-skate vs. linear tracking arms.


I know of one owner with a Linear tracker turntable who INSISTED that the arm had to be perfectly horizontal. Needless to say, his TT never sounded quite right and the wear on his poor LPs would be really bad; Too much friction on the grooves outer wall, while vibration damage to the grooves' inner wall.

of course, you all realise lam is just out to create a ruckus?

yup, just thought to "entertain" him as such...

Sorta along the lines of "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer."

mugenfoo,
I'm not even surprised...

mugenfoo wrote:yup, just thought to "entertain" him as such...

Sorta along the lines of "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer."

ah, so you've quickly established he's a stupid person. well, he'll be reading this soon and I'll get an earful from him in office next time!

bassraptor wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:yup, just thought to "entertain" him as such...

Sorta along the lines of "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer."

ah, so you've quickly established he's a stupid person. well, he'll be reading this soon and I'll get an earful from him in office next time!

Oooo... u said that one! not me !

It's your "extrapolation" , not mine!

There is no rule or law in the universe stopping smart and brilliant people from putting forth stupid questions! Either for fun or whatever else reason!

Please don't insult sflam ... smart and brilliant, indeed!!!

bassraptor wrote:Please don't insult sflam ... smart and brilliant, indeed!!!

[LAUGHING MY ASS OFF!!!]

Bimmerman, you are not the only one. I think most of us in this forum won't ever forgive you either. You thrashed a Studer Revox TT. How can you do such a thing !!!!

WongKN wrote:Bimmerman, you are not the only one. I think most of us in this forum won't ever forgive you either. You thrashed a Studer Revox TT. How can you do such a thing !!!!

Yup, a senseless kid I was running around with a screwdriver and box wrench set. If I remember correctly, I was harvesting ball bearings and magnets to build something. First casualty was the Studer Revox TT, then the Studer Revox 1/2 inch Quardaphonic open reel. Dumb @ss kid!!!

I still remember the Revox speakers, instead of having a big woofer, it had an array of 16 four inch drivers rated at 64 ohms each and wired in series to make 4 ohms. I swear I could hear 20HZ bass from that thing. And the Revox power amp looked like it had a million watts RMS. Tried to hook it up to my walkman but it only had XLR connectors.

Oh and I still remember how every Studer Revox component felt. They were all heavy and covered in some blue/grey swede effect coating on the exterior. From the late 70s I think. If only I knew then what I know now.

Back to Lam Seng Fatts question, maybe it's some sort of trick question? Or contains some hidden subliminal messages of infinate hifi wisdom? Deep!

for enlightenment on sflam's question, read my in-depth analysis a few posts earlier.

Ah, your one liner in-depth analysis... the one about, smart and brilliant? and a master ruckusmonger too. Fascinating!

look who's creating the ruckus...it ain't me.

for the past few hours i had been trying to fix the exact cartridge to the rb300 arm. it has been a long time since i tried something as demanding as that.
bear in mind i went for cataract ops last month.
I almost lost a small screw. but i managed to fix the exact and listened to albums till the wee hours.

ok,
when i unscrewed the old dynavector, i discovered after all these years that the anti-skating had been set at zero.
i remember i had sent the rega planar three to trikay for the motor upgrade many years ago and the person who did the job must have done that cos i never touched the counterweight or anti-skating after that.
i played vinyl for a while before deciding to play only cds.
i don't recall the cartridge mistracking or the right channel distorting when i played albums back then with zero anti-skating.

back to the present moment...to refresh my knowledge about turntables i did some googling and found out the following.

"Antiskating devices didn't become popular until well into the sixties. And even then it was often argued that one could circumvent the need for antiskating simply by increasing the tracking force by 15 or 20 per cent. "

"On unipivot tonearms WITH an azimuth adjustment, anti skate is unnecessary. "

"my impression is that antiskating (or actually skating -- antiskating is the solution, not the problem) only became an issue with high compliance cartridges/low tracking forces. Only with low tracking forces and the low friction arms they require, does skating force become a problem that needs to be addressed."

The following arms have no anti-skating mechanisms - VPI, Hadcock, Well-Tempered (the two strings suspending the tonearm are supposed to provide the counter force). with the shroeder arm, the twists in the string are supposed to provide counter force.

20 years ago, people were debating about anti-skating. looks like even now the debate is still on.
nobody seems to know what the right answer is and i am just as confused today as i was back then.
the general rule is to set the anti-skating to be the same as the tracking force, but some people say it sounds better if it is less than the tracking force.

so i hv a few questions:
1) shld i set anti-skating to zero and increase tracking force by, say, 15 per cent?

2) shld i set anti-skating the same as tracking force?

3) shld i set anti-skating slightly below tracking force?

sflam,
unless you have a test record and an osciloscope, the anti-skating adjustments would be an approximate and it should serve the purpose. It would not affect the sound tremendously.
I would experiement a bit and see(hear) which one would be the best.
I normally use the same anti-skating setting till upto 1.5g, anything more I use 'slightly' less.. this was used on my low mass arm and MC cartridge(Audio Technica).
Now with a 'normal' arm on another TT and an MM cartridge, I just set the anti-skating the same as the tracking weight as any other settings(lower or higher,even zero) no changes in sound were detectable..
Currently I am using an Ortofon, it seems to track better at a slightly higher force,1.7g but the anti-skate I left it at 1.5 mark. Seems to work fine till now..

When all else fails, you just got to trust your ears.


Deviate by applying more than recommended = does the imaging shift right or left? I'd presume it would shift right. More "body" from the right speaker, more sibilance from the left speaker.

Deviate by applying less than recommended = does the imaging shift right or left? I'd presume it would shift left. More "body" from the left speaker, more sibilance from the right speaker.

If no change, congratulations, you have a more "modern" stylus profile that is less susceptible to centripetal forces affection the sound.

The "old-school" method of adjusting antiskate with a groove-less record or a smooth mylar sheet is only applicable to older type of stylii and not so much for modern tips, and here's why (from personal experience & as educated by the super grandmaster of vinyl whom as always has requested to be nameless in forums lest his name & reputation be abused to lend credibility to opinions posted in this forum):

On oldies like a Shure M75ED or Grado Signature series, I could get the tonearm to float in the middle section of a grooveless record easily.

However, with a modern cartridge say, a present-day Benz Micro or Clearaudio, the arm will tend to swing inwards despite setting the antiskate to maximum. So, out goes the "old-school" method for this Clearaudio cartridge. As for the audible differences, i couldn't really tell the diff (from my own far less than "golden-ears" hearing acumen). So i just ended up setting the antiskate following the tonearm mfg's recommended for a particular range of tracking force.

Observing a modern vs. vintage stylii under a magnifying glass demystifies the phenomenon above: The old stylii aren't as sharp at the bottom-most tip, hence it generates less centripetal forces. Whereas for the clearaudio "Trygon P2" stylus, the bottom tip is extremely sharp (and thats why its such an excellent tracker and detail extractor because it really digs deep into the grooves) and the added surface pressure would generate higher centripetal forces on the grooveless records.

That being said, assuming the Trygon P2 stylus' profile to be extremely accurate in riding the grooves, the centripetal forces would be inconsequential and hence virtually inaudible.

mugenfoo,
just wondering. when u say the tonearm with shure and grado could float in the middle section of a grooveless record, i assume the stylus is not in contact with the record. am i correct?

sflam wrote:mugenfoo,
just wondering. when u say the tonearm with
shure and grado could float in the middle section of a grooveless
record, i assume the stylus is not in contact with the record. am i
correct?

OK, maybe "float" is not the right word here.

What i meant is that if you have one of those test records with a "grooveless section" (ie smooth band with no grooves), u drop the tonearm there and see if the arm swings inwards or outwards.

If swing inwards, not enough anti-skate.

If swing outwards, too much anti-skate.

If it just stays in the middle, anti-skate is just about right to counter the centripetal forces. Its the friction from the stylus and the surface in contact which generates this centripetal force.

Any idea where to get the grooveless LP?

cardas makes one, but i'm not sure if hi way laser stocks them.

just met a vinyl sifu who said to use a higher tracking force and set anti-skating to zero.

for the rega exact cartridge, the recommended tradking force is 1.75gms. the sifu told me to use 1.85gms with zero anti-skating.

is it advisable to do that?

sflam,
Give it a shot and see(hear) if there are any differences..
Higher tracking force will definitely require less anti-skating force but .. zero? May be for rega cartridge...

Is this a trick question?

car o scope wrote:Any idea where to get the grooveless LP?

jazzy939 wrote:Is this a trick question?

car o scope wrote:Any idea where to get the grooveless LP?

It's not a trick question. Some Test LPs have a "grooveless" aka smooth band on the surface for specifically to test anti-skate biases.


jazzy939, you're not a vinyl user I presume?

What do you think?

jazzy939

if u fiddle around with the rb300 arm, you will notice that even when anti-skating is set at zero, the arm will swing back slowly.

so zero is not exactly zero....

Oh really?
Hmmm alignment 'sudah lari'?
Okay, never had the RB arm.. well I have(had) one but it's with somebody.. awaiting rework/rewiring so to speak... thought of using it with my Systemdek..

sflam wrote:jazzy939

if u fiddle around with the rb300 arm, you will notice that even when anti-skating is set at zero, the arm will swing back slowly.

so zero is not exactly zero....

jazzy939 wrote:sflam,
Give it a shot and see(hear) if there are any differences..
Higher tracking force will definitely require less anti-skating force but .. zero? May be for rega cartridge...

WARNING: "Blind leading the blind" scenario detected.


Correction: Higher tracking force requires MORE anti-skate bias.

The higher the tracking force, the greater the tendency for the arm to swing towards the centre.

F= M x ( V^2) / R

F = force
m = mass (or tracking weight in the case of turntables)
V = Tangential velocity
R = Distance from centre aka Radius.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal

sflam wrote:just met a vinyl sifu who said to use a higher tracking force and set anti-skating to zero.

for the rega exact cartridge, the recommended tradking force is 1.75gms. the sifu told me to use 1.85gms with zero anti-skating.

is it advisable to do that?

... and who might this person be ? Lets validate his credentials...

I believe this is 'normal' for RB300?

Here's what I found (audiogon forum):

"I don't think this is unusual. I experienced the same thing
with an RB300. With antiskate set to 0 and tracking set to 0, the arm
slowly drifted back to the arm rest. The antiskate mechanism is magnetic
which might explain why it exerts a force even when it's "off." If the
drift is slow, I wouldn't worry about it. Just do your best to set the
tracking force.

Are you using a tracking force gauge and
adjusting the counterweight to apply force? This will give the best
sounding results. Rega's tracking force knob is known to introduce
vibrations into the arm tube. Here's an excellent overview with best
practices:

http://www.tonearm.co.uk/rega-arms-hi-fi-world.htm "

sflam wrote:jazzy939

if u fiddle around with the rb300 arm, you will notice that even when anti-skating is set at zero, the arm will swing back slowly.

so zero is not exactly zero....

Smooth band for anti-skate/bias adjust? I was sceptical that this would work...

Then I found this from audiokarma forum:

"The skating side thrust is the result of the two grove walls contacting
the stylus. A gloveless disk will not tell you much."
"Correct. Common myth, to adjust bias on a smooth surface."

Final findings from AudiogoN forum:

"If you just run a higher tracking force you will not need any
anti-skate."

Personally I'd say proper test record aid with an oscilloscope would be best for this. Otherwise use your ears ...

If you can/want to use certain formula to calculate, blank/smooth surface to adjust, good for you lah! It doesn't mean the other methods are unacceptable!

mugenfoo wrote:

jazzy939 wrote:Is this a trick question?

car o scope wrote:Any idea where to get the grooveless LP?

It's not a trick question. Some Test LPs have a "grooveless" aka smooth band on the surface for specifically to test anti-skate biases.


jazzy939, you're not a vinyl user I presume?

jazzy939 wrote:Smooth band for anti-skate/bias adjust? I was sceptical that this would work...

Then I found this from audiokarma forum:

\"The skating side thrust is the result of the two grove walls contacting
the stylus. A gloveless disk will not tell you much.\"
\"Correct. Common myth, to adjust bias on a smooth surface.\"

If u recall my earlier postings, the \"smooth-band\" adjustment doesn\'t work for the profiles of modern stylii anymore, due to many other factors in play.
And yes it does, because of the different Friction forces from the profile stylus between the diamond and the LP surface, and also sideway thrusts on how well the stylus "hugs" the Groove sidewalls.

BTW, that formula isn\'t supposed to be used to set anti-skate and you misunderstand nicely. It is just to FACTUALLY STATE that if u apply higher tracking forces, you will need GREATER ANTI-SKATING compensation.

In case you didn\'t recognise it, the formula is purely based on Newtonian Physics. You do know basic physics right ?

Audiokarma, Audiogon, Hifi4sale, etc etc... as with any typical boards, are littered with half-baked opinions without any solid factual foundation.

If u got some other FACT that superscedes the above , you\'re welcome to post it here for all to see. But please spare those \"motherhood statements\" from some other forum/board ya? Anyone can claim just about anything on everything.


Anyway, this is my final factual reply on on this topic. Its getting to be like trying to explain colours to a person who was born blind from birth.

It doesn't make any diff. modern profile or not

jazzy939 wrote:It doesn't make any diff. modern profile or not

Good for you, then why don't you just set >>5 grams on your precious LPs and then u can totally ignore anti-skate. Sure good sound one. Guaranteed.



Colours + Blind person = ?

"VPI has conducted careful listening tests and determined that every tonearm we tried sounded better with its mechanical anti-skating disabled and the tracking force very slightly increased.. "

this quote is from the website of vpi which makes turntables and tonearms. it is not from any forum.

sflam,
Agreed. Some tt/tonearm works rather well with reduced anti-skate or none. You ought to know how your equipment behaves.
Manuals, recommendations, formulae, reviews etc are just guidelines. I have mentioned earlier, use you ears.
If the anti-skate is way out, you should be able to hear the channel imbalance. Don't worry about getting everything 'spot on', this is not the equipment!

Mugenfool,
I do track higher because I play my vinyls wet, with no/minimum/reduced anti-skate depending on the LPs and the cartridge I use.

More than 5g? I'm kinda surprised. Without knowing my hardwares and references why such a recommendation? Skipped your medication eh?

jazzy939 wrote:
I do track higher because I play my vinyls wet, with no/minimum/reduced anti-skate depending on the LPs and the cartridge I use.

Actually looks more like you're the old fogie who's the one who forgot your medication; thats why you're playing your LPs wet, listening via wet ears + blind.
Its ok ... i don't blame you, being wet in the ear canals, senile in the head and just generally blind, muddled, & confused.

Won't be surprised if the next thing to come from you is that you play your LPs underwater to get "better sound". No need to know what equipment you have either coz it really doesn't matter if you're gonna play a Rega P3-24 or a VYGER Indian Signature underwater, it can safely be said that they'll all sound the same to your wet ears and senile mellon.

sflam wrote:"VPI has conducted careful listening tests and determined that every tonearm we tried sounded better with its mechanical anti-skating disabled and the tracking force very slightly increased.. "

this quote is from the website of vpi which makes turntables and tonearms. it is not from any forum.

@lam soon fatt , Sorry to burst your bubble, but thats just another "motherhood statement" that so happens to be coming from a manufacturer. The same can be said coming from Roy Gandy (co-founder of REGA) that says VTA adjustment is a neurosis and tells you not to bother with it.

Roy Gandy also doesn't believe in mixing liquids with records (so sorry to dissapoint Ass939 here).

http://www.n.mackie.btinternet.co.uk/documents/regaonvta.html
http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl23.html
http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/708rega/index1.html



So do you adjust "VTA" ?

aaaah, VTA...

i was actually thinking of starting another thread about this other controversial issue.

hmm, i might as well do it.

You're pretty much (very)talented in namecalling, ridicule and people bashing at every chance you can get. I think you're disturbed, probably influenced during your (difficult) upbringing. This is the only place you can let it go, show off and boost you ego. If such behaviour is a reflection of what you are in life, you would fit this nicely, a jackass.

How I play my equipments, using orange coloured cables and MK plugs does not concern you. "Lu mana sakit"? Oh I forgot.. sakit jiwa...

mugenfool wrote:


Actually looks more like you're the old fogie who's the one who forgot your medication; thats why you're playing your LPs wet, listening via wet ears + blind.
Its ok ... i don't blame you, being wet in the ear canals, senile in the head and just generally blind, muddled, & confused.

Won't be surprised if the next thing to come from you is that you play your LPs underwater to get "better sound". No need to know what equipment you have either coz it really doesn't matter if you're gonna play a Rega P3-24 or a VYGER Indian Signature underwater, it can safely be said that they'll all sound the same to your wet ears and senile mellon.

Actually you're the one who started the namecalling, so I'm just playing along with you. And since you cannot carry any proper or formal discussion on many a subject here using facts and figures, you resort to your silly anecdotes and laughable antics.

hey, i don't just ridicule you out of the blue and for nothing. You got to be so deserving of it in the first place. I have standards you know!


Besides, the one with the ego is YOU (really) , not me. Case in point: Since u cannot carry your points with facts, you are the one resorting to namecalling first. And when the namecalling starts, thats where all the fun begins anew (at least for me).
But enuff about that...Yes, back to ass939's habits of playing with LPs and taking a piss on them at the same time...

Hey ass939, you might be on some verge of great discovery there! Why don't you try playing your orange cords "wet" as well? Who knows, you might discover a new revelation in hifi!!



But it's ok, no need to be ashamed if your liquid incontinences are hindering your vinyl enjoyment. Help is just a keyboard away.



OK OK, in the interest of really getting back to the technical topic of something called anti-skate. Let's see if you can "contribute" something meaningful here for discussion or argument PURELY using FACTUAL or even EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. Let see...

or are you just going to keep nursing that hurt ego of yours.... c'mon, don't wet your pants on the account of my postings alone?

ass939 wrote:You're pretty much (very)talented in namecalling, ridicule and people bashing at every chance you can get. I think you're disturbed, probably influenced during your (difficult) upbringing. This is the only place you can let it go, show off and boost you ego. If such behaviour is a reflection of what you are in life, you would fit this nicely, a jackass.

How I play my equipments, using orange coloured cables and MK plugs does not concern you. "Lu mana sakit"? Oh I forgot.. sakit jiwa...