Calling Maggie 1.6 Owners

Calling bassraptor, vs126 and f8. after reading thru apogee/maggie thread, all of u own 1.6 and are active forumers.

I've just received my magnepan 1.7 and running them. I have the following questions.

1. do u place them tweeter inside or outside? manual rec. inside
2. how do u biwire them
3. current amplifier u use
4. bassraptor, when u claim changing jumper (in apogee/maggie thread) improve the sound, what jumper u meant ?

thanks in advance

Hi Chang,

Firstly, congrats on the new 1.7! You must be one of the first in town to own them.

For my 1.6, the tweeters are on the outside. Magnepan specifically advised owners of 1.7 to have the tweeters on the inside though, and I believe you should try both, or stick to their recommendation. Something about the all QR config of the 1.7 that prefers this.

On the 1.6, you can remove the jumpers to bi-wire them. I don't bi-wire, and use the same single solid core Five 9's silver cable for speaker cables as bi-wiring jumpers. I find solid core cables give better focus but less bass than stranded cables on the maggie.

I currently drive it with a Plinius SA50.

Take a look at this web site, many threads on maggies, tweeters inside, outside, what amps to drive, how to set up, modification, cables, changing the stock caps, plenty more.

www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/ ...If the link doesn't work, just google magnepan user group and you will get there. Great fun reading tons of opinions there, see what some folks do with their maggies.

Bal.

Thanks f8 4 ur input.

I will try both position after they are run in, 50 hours more. Early observation when place tweeter outside, more open sound and wide sound stage.

Speaker cable now connected to terminal label amplifier. the other terminal label tweeter/attenuator comes with a connector. U meant this connector is the jumper? I thought it is to connect resistor.

How long have u owned 1.6 ? The 1.7 is my first maggie but have been playing with box speakers past 15 years.

In general, tweeters on inside gives a more focused singer in the middle and on the outside gives a broader sound stage. However, note that 1.7 is in fact a 3 way system comprising bass, tweeter and super tweeter, all being Quasi Ribbon (flat foil like material instead of solid cooper wires as found on the planar magnetic bass/woofer of 1.6). As such, I'd imagine the 1.6 and 1.7 is different in the sense:
1. bass: Planar-Magnetic vs Quasi Ribbon
2. treble: single tweeter vs tweeter+super tweeter
Given the above, I won't readily expect the 1.6 and 1.7 to behave similarly, positioning wise.

On the wiring, I've not seen how the binding posts on the 1.7 look like, but if its similar to the (bad) ones on the 1.6 as follows:
____Amp + * * Amp -
__Woofer + * * Woofer - | fuse
_Tweeter + * * Tweeter- | fuse

then the jumpers are vertically inserted for the Woofer and Tweeter holes. Actually, the Woofer and Amp holes are internally connected, and in order to send power to tweeter you use the jumper from woofer to tweeter. If you want to tone down the treble i imagine you use the attenuator as the jumper so that power from the woofer pin is attenuated before being sent to the tweeter pin.

In my case, the + from amp goes straight into woofer+, and a short same cable as jumper goes from woofer + to tweeter +.

Then for -ve, the - from amp goes into the bottom fuse holder (the tweeter - is wired here internally), with a short jumper from woofer - to the same bottom fuse holder. I bypass the fuse in this manner (sshh..).

This essentially gives you what is commonly seen on box speaker hook-ups, amp + to woofer +, jumper to tweeter +, then woofer - jumper to tweeter - and then tweeter - back to amp -.

I've had the 1.6 for about 2 years now. Its my first hifi system (couldn't afford anything decent before as a student..).

Chang, what amp are you driving it with, and what was your previous box speakers if you don't mind me asking please.

Bal and guys, check out CHeapTubeAudio and scroll down to see another fellow 1.7 user

Congratulations Chang, indeed you must be the first fellow who received the 1.7, there is worldwide waiting list since the rave reviews. I would love to have a chance to listen to this given the opportunity. Happy tunning.

Jo Ki

f8,

I think the 1.7 terminal is diff. from 1.6. Appreciate ur effoft to explain. Its diff. from normal box speaker. Will post pic.

I am current running them with sony taf 707es 140 watt 4 ohm. My previous speaker is Ruark Talisman, very good will keep them.

jo ki,

You are welcome after 100 hours run in.

chang wrote:Calling bassraptor, vs126 and f8. after reading thru apogee/maggie thread, all of u own 1.6 and are active forumers.

I've just received my magnepan 1.7 and running them. I have the following questions.

1. do u place them tweeter inside or outside? manual rec. inside
2. how do u biwire them
3. current amplifier u use
4. bassraptor, when u claim changing jumper (in apogee/maggie thread) improve the sound, what jumper u meant ?

thanks in advance

Chang, to answer you questions:
1. Follow the instructions first, then experiment. For the 1.6, tweeters on the outside, as per the manual. I once accidentally placed them the other way around, spent a day wondering why the bass sounded so horrible before realising what I had done!
2. I used to, don't anymore, although MIT is trying to convince me to get a biwired pair of cables!
3. Odyssey Audio Khartago power/Tempest pre.
4. Your 1.7 cannot be bi-wired, it looks like. However, for the 1.6, there is one pair of terminals for single-wiring and two other sets if you want to bi-wire, so three sets in all. When using single-wire runs, the bi-wired terminals shud be shorted, and the Maggies' shorting links are one of the weaker things in the system. you can change the links with varying effects. As for your 1.7, i think changing the tweeter attenuator link might also have a similar effect.

I suggest letting your 1.7 run for a couple of months regularly, before starting to fine tune stuff.

hope this helps

This looks exactly like the back of the MMG.
You should have received 2-3 resistors to replace the steel bar within the tweeter/attenuator, only meant to do this if you feel the tweeter is too bright.

One of the simplest things you could do to improve the sound is to replace the steel bar with some copper wire or good quality speaker cable cut very short. I did this with my MMG with much impovement in imaging and image height. One of the things noticed with the MMG as it comes stock is that the image height is very low. Singers seem 3 feet tall. Changing that steel connector to copper improves the image height somewhat.

Bal.

Hi Chang,

Here's some poison

If you have a multimeter, remove both the Tweeter jumper and the fuse, then try to ascertain whether its the left or right of the Tweeter/Attenuator pins that has a connection to the Amplifier + pin. The other pin, lets call this Tweeter +.

Next, with the fuse out, try to see whether its the upper or lower fuse holder that has a connection to the Amplifier - pin. The other pin, lets call this Tweeter -.

Now, run a short wire jumper from Amplifier + to the newly discovered Tweeter +. And then run a short jumper from the Amplifier - pin to the Tweeter - pin. Wire the amp + to the Amplifier +, and amp - to the Tweeter -. For small core wires you can use the fuse to hold 2 wires in (amp and jumper) on the -ve side.

Sit back and tell me if there's a difference

Chang,

My honest/sincere opinion - before you do anything at all, why not just position the new speakers according to the owner's manual and then just sit back and relax and enjoy the sound/music while letting the speakers run in. My experience with Apogees and I think will apply to Maggies as well is that their sound improves significantly with running in. Furthermore, you really do need time to get to know your new speakers, and by that I mean its characteristics, strenghts, limitations, constraints, etc. I tend to believe in the following golden rule when tuning a hifi system - BASICS FIRST.

If you do not have a very intimate knowledge of how the 1.7 sounds, how can you venture to tune it with any degree of confidence, and more importantly consistency ? If you do not know the system very well, and you try/start to tune it, eventually you end up going around in circles. This happened to one guy I know, after he spent a few months positioning his speakers, he found out he eventually moved them back to their original positions - the same position that the dealer placed them in originally.

So my recommendation-
1. Sit back, relax, enjoy, let the speakers run in.
2. Get to know the speakers as well as you can.
3. THEN only you start with basic set-up - speaker positioning including tweeter alignment, distance from back wall & side wall, distance between speakers, toe-in/toe-out, tilt.
4. THEN only you start to experiment with jumper cables and what not.

All my personal opinion only of course.

bassraptor,

Thanks a lot for answering. I now know that 1.7 cannot biwire and my curiosity about jumper solved. Will fine tune after run in as suggest.

For general info, 1.7 is not difficult to drive. I try Exposure 2010 with good results ie sound.

bal,

I received 2 resistor and 2 fuse. With the tweeter outside the sound stage is wide and image height depends on how u seat. If i seat upright, image is in front and 1 foot above. If i slump (laid back) looking slightly upwards, image or singer appears to be 6 - 7 feet high. Funny as the 1.7 height is only 5.5 feet. Imaging is pretty good as it is.

Bare in mind i am a music lover and not an audiophile or reviewer.

f8,

Thanks again 4 ur detail description n instruction. I am not a technical person like u and dare not try or venture as u suggest, worrying i might blow or damage my brand new 1.7

WongKN,

Thanks, you do make sense with your recommendations.

You're most welcome Chang. Sorry if I got over enthusiastic, sure let her settle in and get to know her. If you need advice on positioning and tuning, Jo Ki, bassraptor and all who have responded thus far have a breadth and depth of knowledge in this area. Try asking them about footers and types/material (metal cones, spikes, marble, granite, wood, glass, magnetic levitation )

I would love to tag along with Jo Ki on the 100hour offer

Bal, if the MMG binding posts look like that of the 1.7, bi-wiring is technically possible. Personally, I prefer single wiring but with the most direct mode of connection/jumpering possible, which in the notes above, apply for your MMG too I guess.

You know, WongKN makes a lot of sense. Yes, do take your time. I find that after spending a lot of time with my maggies, getting to know her strengths and weaknesses, and letting her break in (up to a hundred hours or more!!), the sound changes and improves.

Some find the higher frequencies too bright during burn in time, and you could use the resistor to tame the treble for the time being. I did not need to do this with my MMG.

I have done a lot of mods on my MMGs, and find that you can do alot to the basic speaker to get exceptional sound. However, i did go the way WongKN suggests, listen listen listen for months first to get to know the speaker.

Bi amping is possible, but lot of work needed to seperate the tweeter from the bass and i find that replacing the stock crossover parts with better inductor and caps gets very good results. I am in the process of doing this.

I am glad to hear someone say that they enjoy the music rather than beingg an audiophile. Most of my money goes on music also, i find the MMGs give excellent excellent performance for the ringgit. I'm running mine with a home made pre amp and a NAD C270. Sound is excellent enough for me.

Do keep letting us know your experiences with the 1.7!!

Bal.

f8

Sure why not u can come with Jo Ki. But WARNING! don't blame me if u no longer like or love your 1.6 after that.

Seriously, my room is only 10 x 11 x 8.5 feet high. Not ideal 4 1.7 and used with modest cd and amp. They may not give high fidelity sound but i am sure they can play good music. Will post some pictures.

Bal

I am taking WongKN advice. Will update u guys after run in.


Earlier setup with Ruark


Present setup with Magnepan


My modest equipment

bal wrote:

I am glad to hear someone say that they enjoy the music rather than beingg an audiophile. Most of my money goes on music also, i find the MMGs give excellent excellent performance for the ringgit. I'm running mine with a home made pre amp and a NAD C270. Sound is excellent enough for me.

Do keep letting us know your experiences with the 1.7!

Bal.

Dear Bal,
I enquired cost of MMG and Steven of Absolute Sound said that its high freight charge renders it not viable. Wonder if you import this yourself?

Dear Chang,
Thank you for allowing me to listen to your 1.7, I am looking forward to it very much. Please let me know when it is time. I would love to come with F8 to bundle the visits together as long as he does not mind.

Jo Ki

I would be very happy and honoured to come together with Jo Ki to listen to the 1.7. Let us know the time Chang.

how much is the maggie 1.7 imported direct from USA?

thanks.
wps

Hi Jo ki,

so sorry i was a way for the weekend. I bought the MMG on line direct from Magneplanar, USD599. Add freight i think it was about USD300, and tax and delivery from KLIA to home was about RM750... i feel the tax and freight to my house i could have got a better deal. But all in all it was about rm4K.

Well worth it because the 1.6 Absolute Sound want rm10K to bring in when i asked them, and my room is way too small for 1.6 anyway.

I have just done one side of my MMG, changed the mdf frame to solid hard wood frame, and i can say that the sound benefits so much more. Deeper bass and pin point imaging.

Hope this helps you! :-)

Bal.

Bal, where did you get the hard wood frame done?

My own handywork!!! Bought wood from MATAHARI, they have nice cheap hardwood there for sale, they cut it into lengths you need, in the old part of subang, read and looked at pictures in the MUG (maggie user group) from inmates there who have done this themselves. The MMG is quite easy to do... i made a prototype first from strips of wood from IKEA, soft wood actually, and when i was convinced that the sound is so much better and not just my imagination, i went ahead with the hard wood.

Everything is reversible. I can place the driver back into the original mdf frames anytime.

Call me at 012-3058090 if this interests you. Or send me your e mail address, and i could try to send you pictures of projects from others as well as my own little frames. You will immediately note that my frames look quite hideous compared to the rest... i unfortunately am not a wood worker.

my email address is balinkl@gmail.com . Do Write!! :-)

Bal.

Hi,

The 100 hours run in passed last friday and have been matching my equipment to find the best sound over the weekend. Final setup is,

Toshiba DVD as transport
Sony EP9ES DSP as DAC
this combo is much better than Marantz CD7300 player
VDH D102 mk iii interconnect
Exposure 2010 amp
Kimber Kable 8TC

Even though manual rec. place tweeter inside, i prefer outside maybe is because of my small room. With tweeter inside, i find the vocals is less focus in the center but image is 5 - 6 feet high.

Place outside, vocals focus dead center but image height lower 4 - 5 feet. Sound stage is very wide with instruments place everywhere within this wide and huge sound stage. For the first time, i hear image depth 2 - 3 feet behind front wall.

Tweeter or highs sounds smooth with enough extension to cymbals or strings (guitar) after they have been struck without sounding dull.

The midrange is excellent. I am a Celine Dion fan and usually close my eyes when listening to her music. Her voice sounded so real as she is in the room singing to me, only to realize that I was tricked by 1.7 when i opened my eyes. Generally all instruments sound excellent especially with piano.

The only drawback is the bass. There is only a hint of low bass. With the Ruark driven by Marantz PM7200 in class A mode, the bass is deep and low where u not only hear them but also feel them. I hope u know what i meant.

Another problem is there is a resonant sound (ggrrrr...) with some songs playing strings or synthesize bass. I dont get this problem with drums. I never have this problem with Ruark driven by all my 3 amps. It is unbearable with Jenifer Warnes, Hunter track 8. I suspect certain frequency caused the resonant sound in my small room.

This is not a 1.7 review but more of a sound descriptions of my system from my perspective. And a comparison with the Ruark which i owned over past 12 years. I have not heard enough equipments or speakers to qualify for a review.

Calling Jo Ki, f8 and WongKN. The time u guys have been waiting for is here. I suggest we meet at Tesco extra Taman Midah, Cheras. Parking is free. U can pm me your hp and i will call to finalize details. Dont forget to bring your favorite CDs.

Jo Ki,
I know its a bit crowded as others tag along but make this first visit as a preview only. And if u are still interested, u can visit again for individual listening session with your cd and amp. I am also curious how your cd and amp plus your expertise can make my 1.7 sing !!

Hi Chang,



What i can tell you about placement is if you place it wide, then the tweeter shd be inside and vice versa. It is just a rule of thumb.

This is to get the staging.

I wonder if your exposure amp is controlling the bass panel well... i'm probably wrong but just thinking out loud.

Bal.

I think you are right. Bal.

Maggies need a lot of power. Exposure wld not be able to drive yr 1.7 well.

You wld be surprised when you increase the power, the more the better. Try at least 250 watts high current power amp and sound will improve as you increase the power.

is MF a300cr with 225/ch dual mono consider a good match with 1.7?

My Maggies sounded nicer to me driven by a high-current 110W amp than a 400W amp costing thrice the price. Heck, a 110W Exposure 3010S2 did a damn good job as well!

Bal,
I thought so initially but why only with bass guitar? Greatest Basso track 6, drums sound tight and with punch with zero resonant.

VS126,
The sounds is so good now i can only imagine how much better can it get. Only A/B comparison can convinced me.

bassraptor,
I am amaze how good the sound is with Exposure 2010 except the resonant problem. Hope its not amp related otherwise must spend more money on new amp. How much is your Odyssey Audio Khartago power amp?

Chang, I sent you a PM.

chang wrote:Bal,
I thought so initially but why only with bass guitar? Greatest Basso track 6, drums sound tight and with punch with zero resonant.

VS126,
The sounds is so good now i can only imagine how much better can it get. Only A/B comparison can convinced me.

bassraptor,
I am amaze how good the sound is with Exposure 2010 except the resonant problem. Hope its not amp related otherwise must spend more money on new amp. How much is your Odyssey Audio Khartago power amp?

Just to add fuel to the fire:

Feed the Maggies with something like a Krell KRS or MDA monoblock (or if not so antiquated, perhaps the Krell FPB series), and as VS126 puts it, and you'll "go to heaven every night" when your whack your system....

so the key word is "high current amp".. cool

Of course, you'll need to balance the cost factor. I've heard a 50-watt FM Acoustics amp system driving the 1.6 to heaven! Still, RM80-90k of amp to drive an RM10k speaker ... I wonder.

Chang, can't figure out your "resonance" issue till I actually hear it - might be a good idea to borrow another amp from elsewhere and compare. The Khartago I have it the Extreme SE version, around 6k.

Chang, Trust me, I have been there.

BR, Feed yr 1.6 with another higher power high current amp of same make and you will know what I am talking about.

From what I can gather, your bass resonant problem is due to underpower. Yr 1.7 is new so do not have delam problem. So most probably, yr amp does not have enough reserve power to control the double bass which is actually more difficult to produce than drum bass.

Pls note that a 50 or 100 watter FM or vitus or mbl etc is not the same as a 50 or 100 watter audiolab or arcam or MF or parasound etc.

Further more, a 100 watter intergrated is not the same as a 100 watter stereo or mono block. Watts does not means anything, the keyword is CURRENT.

Go for at least 100 watter tube amp as many people have got good results with it or class D amp of at least 500 to 1000 watts. (The latest range of class D amp sounds like tube amp on steroids at portion of it's cost).

Or go for second hand Krell/Rowlands/Mac and you will never look back.

Yeah AZRI, the key word is HIGH CURRENT AMP.

All above is not meant that you cannot use yr MF to drive it but the speaker is capable of producing much better performance with better high current amp.

As what my famous good Doctor friend used to say "not to the full potential"

BTW Mugen, do you go to "HEAVEN" everynite with yr 12 inch platter... yet?

I think you can gauge the current capability of an amp by looking at the rating of its power trans vs its rated output power. Better still if the specs mention its current output. Otherwise, the weight of the amp gives an indication of the weight of its transformer and thus its rating.

As an example, there is a 50W amp which has a 650VA trans and the amplifier's current output is specified at 30A, with a weight of 21kg.

And there is a 150W amp with a 400VA trans weighing 11.4kg.

Yet another 50W amp called the KSA-50S has current output max at 60A with a weight of almost 30kg.

I think current is important for Maggies because of its 4Ohm impedance. Same argument applies even further for some Apogees.

Yes, current, current, this is the key! Also, in the past, I've used an all-tube Mesa Baron (sold already) to drive the 1.6, it can output power from 50 to 150W in various push-pull triode and pentode configurations, excellent results.

VS126 - For the foreseeable future, my hi-fi spending has come to an end ... more important things to take care of ... .... as i said, my life isn't all about hifi!

I'm also curious about how Spectral amps will drive Maggies ... then again, cost factor. Guess that's why the Odyssey amps are such great bargains!


When I'm good and ready again, and feel I've run the Khartago-1.6 combination to its hilt, then the Stratus beckons.

Hi everyone, good morning. I was actually thinking out loud when i wrote that it may be the amp, this was my experience way back when i was trying to drive an older pair of Maggie SMGa's, also heard this awful sound with bass guitar but not so with drums. Took them to Absolute sound and they tested with a more powerful amp, and the sound was not there.

So i thought i would share that with you.

When i was auditioning amps, i found that i could not drive my maggies with, for example Quad 100watter, the bass panel would twack really badly with bass guitar sounds. Same with a Carver 100wattter. My NAD C270 does a nice job for the financial outlay of rm2k. I don't see myself upgrading amps for a long long time to come.

But then i'm a nut, and if it moves me i may sell the car and get a krell tomorrow...sigh.(not completely in jest...)

See if you could beg borrow or steal a bigger amp with about 200watts and can put out 25A or more current, see if the anomaly is gone.
Bal.

bassraptor wrote:
.....
When I'm good and ready again, and feel I've run the Khartago-1.6 combination to its hilt, then the Stratus beckons.

Stratos mastos. Don't waste your time lar. Go for the KISMET !!

Bal,

Thanks a lot. I think u have hit the nail on its head. Looks like i need a new high current amp.

WongKN wrote:

bassraptor wrote:
.....
When I'm good and ready again, and feel I've run the Khartago-1.6 combination to its hilt, then the Stratus beckons.

Stratos mastos. Don't waste your time lar. Go for the KISMET !!

Ha ha ... i think not. I could do much better things with that money! And not hi-fi ...

chang wrote:Bal,

Thanks a lot. I think u have hit the nail on its head. Looks like i need a new high current amp.

Chang, i may be wrong!! Please don't go out and buy a new amp just yet!! Test first!! If you are really stuck, pm or e mail me, i could bring my NAD C270 and hook up to your speakers. But you will need a pre amp as well, and my home made one never leaves my house under any circumstances.

But yes, i can help with the power amp.

Bal.

BR,
2nd wife? Maybe

Pls note that HIFI got resale value. When you get tired of it, you still get something back when you disposed of it.

more mahal to make than the wedding ring....



Bal.

Bal,

Thanks for the offer but I think I need fresh new wife or girlfriend (idea from vs126).

The 707es is as old as the Ruark. Sony DAC already 10 years. Both PM7200 and Exposure 2010 more than 6 years old...

Chang,

FWIW, I do tend to agree with the rest, that you really need a 'stronger' amp to get the best out of the 1.7. The Odyssey is one of the best value for money amps you can get nowadays. The Karthiga is a very good entry level, and if you buy from Audio Image (Odyssey won't sell to anyone from Malaysia anyway), you get the 'Extreme' version already. Of course you can also take the poison I offered to bassraptor whom declined. And get the Kismet.

WongKN,

What is the Kismet? Details please.

how about an emotiva xpa-5? is that enough? it is rated at 200w into 8ohms and 300w into 4 ohms, all 5 channels driven:

http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.shtm

the watts will be different if only driving 2 channels. hope there is a way to allow the maggie 1.7 to bi-amp

wps

Consider a pair of 500 watter monoblocks from Wyred4sound. It doesn't cost you a arm or leg and sounds fantastic.
6moons and absolute sounds awarded it. You can use it even when you upgraded to 3.6 or 20.1
Google wyred4sound
They are the ex-manufacturer for PS audio products in the USA

There is someone from Johor bringing it in.

Chang, I was referring to the Odyssey Kismet, Odyssey's top model. Very professionally finished and sound very refined in addition to an ability to drive very difficult speakers. Odyssey was made famous because they are one of a very very few affordable amps which can drive the Magico speakers. Someone I know just bought a Karthiga to drive his Apogee Centaur Minor. So Odyssey's are proven, in terms of driving a difficult speaker load. In terms of models, Odyssey Karthiga is so-called entry level (in price, but high-end in sound !), then Stratos and then Kismet. Both Karthiga and Stratos are a bit minimalist in finish. Kismet, being the top model looks like Krell, ML, etc.

Of course there are alternatives as well. Krell, Mark Levinson, Spectral, FM Acoustics, etc. But they, on the other hand, costs more than all our arms and legs.

My personal opinion. I prefer to buy from a proper dealer/shop who is the officially appointed dealer, for support reasons. Ideally the owner is a music fan himself. Also, I prefer to stick to a proven brand. For amps for e.g., something I know or have heard driving the speaker or similar speaker to what I intend to drive. Yeah, maybe a bit old fashioned and boring, not adventurous. But that's the safest way to ensure I get my music played the best way it can be played.

D@mn.. Those Odyssey amps are really tempting..

When the guy's amp arrives, I will ask him for his opinion and then relay to you the poiso... errr... I mean the feedback...