Power cords and its use

noodle88 wrote:Rocketman,
the orange cable is come with the amp n it's link between the distribution and his 48v swithing power supply. The designer even tune the cable to suit his amp. Pls don't mislead other forumer to do what your friend did. His amp is running with a super quiet switch mode power supply which running at 300k hz and not our normal 50hz from TNB.

To be exact, his speaker cable is now 1mm n not 0.8mm. He notice a big changes when he switch to the 1mm. I'm sure if he would change his speaker cable to flat nordost it would be much better.

For me I will use powercord that suit my system, as all cable will sound different, so as to those connectors. Just try them out one by one and find out their charactor. Then select the combination that best for your system.

Cheers,

Bro, dont get me wrong. It is not my slightest intention to mislead anybody to use or not to use after market power cord. I merely presented my experience and as it has been said many many times, we are all adults and can make sensible decisions ourselves. Nobody should control how you want to spend your money.

Very interesting discussion but as it has happened all over other forums, it can turn into a can of worms so lets stay focused. I shall refrain from commenting on what other have already criticized.

From my experience, it do make a difference. Why? Even though it's just that last freakin 2m from the wall plug to the equipment? That is much harder to explain. What I do know is that the Transformer is the heart of all our HiFi devices, "pumping" current through the circuit boards and wires to create music that we all so cherish...

Why it makes bigger difference on CDPs or DACs or Pre-amps rather than integrated or power amps? IMO, i think that is because most amps have over-engineered transformers to handle higher power output so that last bit of super thick 2m of cables only provide minimal improvement. As for the lower current devices, any assistance are translated to improvement.

My friend and I was at Chua's house a few weeks ago to listen to the new Audio-GD NFB-1 DAC. After more than 1 hour, he swapped out the Belden cable and replaced it with the Wireworld Stratum. 4 of us can hear the immediate improvement. Better clarity and definition, less harsh, bass was lower, tighter and separation was more apparent. It was no placebo when all 4 of us have similar opinion.

Now, why the inconsistency? How come some can hear the difference and others don't? Again, IMO (so don't shoot me), the system has to be sufficiently revealing enough to "show" the difference.

Before I got my ProAc Tablette, I can't hear the difference when I changed the power cord (PC). Speaker cables yes, it was obvious but not PC. With the Tablette's immense resolution, I could hear the weak link in my setup restraining the sound. And thus, I had to upgrade the rest to match the Tablette. The rest include a huge outlay on cables. Never in my life could I imagine that I would buy cables costing more than amplifiers or CDPs but heck... the Tablette did me in. And I can HEAR the difference each cable bring about. I now have Furutech and IeGO power cords, Audio Art IC-3SEs interconnects and Audio Art SC-5SE speaker cables. Wireworld Aurora on the way... It's all burning a big hole in my pocket... thanks to my Tablette...

123_rocketman wrote:He uses 0.8mm solid single core transformer wire as speaker cables.

I was using DNM solid core speaker cables with Rhodium plated Furutech plugs. After more than 100 hours of burn in, I swapped in my Audio Art SC-5SE. Man... it was like I replaced my amp! The sound was valve amp smooth. Improved SQ across the board, wider and deeper soundstage and very accurate imaging! After 4 hours, the bass got lower than what I could imagine the tiny Tablette can produce... truly ear opening and totally worth the price I paid for them!

To all those who have spent BIG $$$$$$ on power cables, speaker cables and happy with the improvements, I congratulate and salute you. Your money is certainly well spent.

For me, I couldn't hear the diff and thus will not part a single dollar to upgrade my computer/kettle cables.

Maybe I should spend my money on ENT to chip away the hardened ear wax first

Setting the priority right..........

.. or more music software, like CDs, LPs etc ...

mugenfoo wrote:.. or more music software, like CDs, LPs etc ...

Mugen, perhaps more Lady GaGa LPs ha.....

Yeah, you guys go buy more powercords, software and such... Me i'm saving up for a pair of Westminsters

Whats the conclusion then for this discussion?

My own conclusion based on MY set up and MY experience, it does make a different using different power cords. Key word here is DIFFERENT, not necessarily BETTER.

Try the change and listen. If you like it, use it. If you dont; sell it cheap here hehehe

I agree. There was differences detected among the various cables but at the end of the day it boils down to, if you like and can live with the differences and last but not least, if you can afford it!

noodle88 wrote:
For me I will use powercord that suit my system, as all cable will sound different, so as to those connectors. Just try them out one by one and find out their charactor. Then select the combination that best for your system.

Cheers,

Suppose we have 10 each of US plugs, UK plugs, cables and IEC plugs made of different materials and brands; what will the total combinations be and how long will it take to try them all?

Any volunteer?

123_rocketman wrote:

noodle88 wrote:
For me I will use powercord that suit my system, as all cable will sound different, so as to those connectors. Just try them out one by one and find out their charactor. Then select the combination that best for your system.

Cheers,

Suppose we have 10 each of US plugs, UK plugs, cables and IEC plugs made of different materials and brands; what will the total combinations be and how long will it take to try them all?

Any volunteer?

Waaahhh very high dosage of venom here

elhefe wrote:

123_rocketman wrote:

noodle88 wrote:
For me I will use powercord that suit my system, as all cable will sound different, so as to those connectors. Just try them out one by one and find out their charactor. Then select the combination that best for your system.

Cheers,

Suppose we have 10 each of US plugs, UK plugs, cables and IEC plugs made of different materials and brands; what will the total combinations be and how long will it take to try them all?

Any volunteer?

Waaahhh very high dosage of venom here

Bro, jangan lah macam tu. Dont lah use venom, lest I be accused of trying to poison the members here.

bimmerman wrote:Yeah, you guys go buy more powercords, software and such... Me i'm saving up for a pair of Westminsters

So you think.
The BAD news is that recently I got to know this guy who has a pair of Westminsters. He has tried every commonly recommended amps for his speakers from all the so-called high-sensitivity, valve, or SET gurus. Eventually he told me he found the best amp to drive his Westminsters. And it is ....

Krell FBP-450.

I kid you not.

For me, all these tweaks and accessories, they are most needed AFTER you have gotten your system complete and up to par. They should not and could not cover up for weaknesses in the system itself or system set-up. I.e. if your amp cannot drive your speakers, then no power cord in the universe can help you. So do not make the mistake of thinking that a pair of Furutech will suddenly allow your weak amp to control that Maggie or Apogee. Similarly, if your system set-up or speaker placement is wrong and you get boom or suck-out or no imaging, etc, you should fix that at the source, and not by putting in fancy interconnects, power cords, or some 'tuning cups', to try to fix the problem. You will simply be misleading yourself.

As the advertisement goes "you should not use perfume to cover up a smelly shirt and then pretend it doesn't smell".

The converse is also true. Once your system is up to par, then tweaks and accessories can become very effective in -fine-tuning- the final sonic balance and signature of your system. And to remove those small imperfections, many of which may be caused by simple things like improper vibration isolation and so forth. This then is when they are most audible and has the biggest benefit.

So the rule is this. Get your basics right first. The system must be well balanced, properly set-up and tuned. It must sound good first. But after that, you will start hearing small imperfections here and there. NOW you complement and complete the system with good accessories and tuning devices and tweaks.

Hi bimmerman,

be prepared for another blow to pocket. our moderator has good advice. how about some good room treatment to selectively cancel out the home ministry calling.

Yes to Westminsters ! Yes to Krell !

WongKN wrote:

So you think.
The BAD news is that recently I got to know this guy who has a pair of Westminsters. He has tried every commonly recommended amps for his speakers from all the so-called high-sensitivity, valve, or SET gurus. Eventually he told me he found the best amp to drive his Westminsters. And it is ....

Krell FBP-450.

I kid you not.

If not mistaken, the power cord is not detachable from this Krell.
So, no need invest in expensive power cord. Save money.

123_rocketman wrote:

noodle88 wrote:
For me I will use powercord that suit my system, as all cable will sound different, so as to those connectors. Just try them out one by one and find out their charactor. Then select the combination that best for your system.

Cheers,

Suppose we have 10 each of US plugs, UK plugs, cables and IEC plugs made of different materials and brands; what will the total combinations be and how long will it take to try them all?

Any volunteer?

I got a sifu who tried most of the brand of uk, us n iec plug. He know most of their charactor. U let him have the cable, he can recomand which plug n iec u need. Do u want to meet him? Ask your friend weather I'm telling the truth...

Krell FPB to drive Westminsters??? Surely that cannot be true. Maybe the dude has a room the size of a football field? But there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy says Hamlet. So be that the truth then I'll wager the KAV-300i might fair nicely too. To a lesser degree of course. Or how about Mark Levinson's 20Watt monoblocks. Those won't break the bank these days.

As for silencing the home ministry, I could just slap on some ear muffs with the inscription "GRADO PS-1000" on it.

Ohhhhh you guys are naughty!!!

WongKN wrote:For me, all these tweaks and accessories, they are most needed AFTER you have gotten your system complete and up to par. They should not and could not cover up for weaknesses in the system itself or system set-up. I.e. if your amp cannot drive your speakers, then no power cord in the universe can help you. So do not make the mistake of thinking that a pair of Furutech will suddenly allow your weak amp to control that Maggie or Apogee. Similarly, if your system set-up or speaker placement is wrong and you get boom or suck-out or no imaging, etc, you should fix that at the source, and not by putting in fancy interconnects, power cords, or some 'tuning cups', to try to fix the problem. You will simply be misleading yourself.

As the advertisement goes "you should not use perfume to cover up a smelly shirt and then pretend it doesn't smell".

The converse is also true. Once your system is up to par, then tweaks and accessories can become very effective in -fine-tuning- the final sonic balance and signature of your system. And to remove those small imperfections, many of which may be caused by simple things like improper vibration isolation and so forth. This then is when they are most audible and has the biggest benefit.

So the rule is this. Get your basics right first. The system must be well balanced, properly set-up and tuned. It must sound good first. But after that, you will start hearing small imperfections here and there. NOW you complement and complete the system with good accessories and tuning devices and tweaks.

I fully subscribe to the above. Big time!

noodle88 wrote:

123_rocketman wrote:

noodle88 wrote:
For me I will use powercord that suit my system, as all cable will sound different, so as to those connectors. Just try them out one by one and find out their charactor. Then select the combination that best for your system.

Cheers,

Suppose we have 10 each of US plugs, UK plugs, cables and IEC plugs made of different materials and brands; what will the total combinations be and how long will it take to try them all?

Any volunteer?

I got a sifu who tried most of the brand of uk, us n iec plug. He know most of their charactor. U let him have the cable, he can recomand which plug n iec u need. Do u want to meet him? Ask your friend weather I'm telling the truth...

Hi noodle88,

I believe you 100%. There is no need to ask or meet anybody because my problem is I cant tell the difference with different power cords. The problem is within me and nobody else.

Thanks bro.

Congrats Mr Rocketman.

Your wallet will remain thick while you still enjoy yr system. The others can forever upgrade and tweak for the rest of their hifi days and still not be satisfied.

Rocketman, there is one thing you need to understand. The human brain and directly human senses are basically filtered sensory inputs. I.e. the brain does a hell lot of signal processing, then uses current preferences and life experiences to filter and process the input from the senses. Let me give you an everyday real-life scenario to explain what I mean. It might even have happened to you.

You are driving home, with your partner in the car beside you. As you turn at the traffic lights to get into your taman, you notice a 'new' restaurant in a row of shophouses. You remark to your partner. "Wah, got new restaurant. We should try it soon. Wonder when it opened". Your partner looks at you. "It's been there for a few months already la. I even told you about it but all you did was nod your head and mumbled something about England losing to Germany in the world cup".

Now, does the shop exist ? Did your eyes actually see the shop for all those months you were driving past it ? Why suddenly and now only you notice it ? Could it be because your partner was complaining you haven't taken her out for dinner recently and you have been thinking hard where to bring her to ?

I have seen and have also been involved in numerous occasions where I was given some accessory or tweak to audition, or was asked if I can hear any difference and the person put some 'thing' into the system. Or went to meddle with some 'thing'.

The issue to me is this. 1) If we do not know what the difference is that we are supposed to be hearing, we probably won't hear it. Not because we can't hear it, but because we 'don't' hear it. The brain by-passes it because it considers it unimportant. 2) Conversely, many times a tweak or accessory impresses people most is because it improves an area which the listener has been critical or unhappy about. So he/she has been paying lots of attention to the imperfection. And we all know when this happens, even a tiny imperfection will sound like a huge flaw to us. So when a tweak or accessory helps correct it even if only partially, we notice it immediately. And because we have been obssessed with solving it, this is often the reason why some people proclaims "WAH !!!! The new powercord makes a TREMENDOUS improvement. But others who have heard it and to whom the problem wasn't a big issue, was wondering "what's wrong with this guy and his/her ears ? Where got 'big' improvement. Got improvement lar, but its subtle only".

For your case, what was it you are expecting from the power cord you tested. Were you unsatisfied with any specific areas of your system. And very importantly, is that problem a basic one or it's just subtle fine-tuning. Then, is there any technical/logical reason why a better power cord will help improve/correct the imperfection ? E.g. power cord improves the purity of the power supply. So it usually gives better power, more dynamics, clearer sound, etc. But it SELDOM if ever, makes the sound warmer for e.g. So do give yourself a chance. It's not that your ears are not good enough to hear the difference. It could well be you don't really know what to listen for. Or you are not aware of the difference because they are not important to you.

Well said WongKN.

VS126 wrote:Congrats Mr Rocketman.

Your wallet will remain thick while you still enjoy yr system. The others can forever upgrade and tweak for the rest of their hifi days and still not be satisfied.

Thanks bro.

I am not too sure about the thick wallet part as it has been thin since eons ago

Again, I subscribe to the above. Wish I could explain things like WongKN can.

Somehow I wish he cld summarise his postings.

KN: Whatever it is you're smoking, I want some ...

WongKN wrote:Rocketman, there is one thing you need to understand. The human brain and directly human senses are basically filtered sensory inputs. I.e. the brain does a hell lot of signal processing, then uses current preferences and life experiences to filter and process the input from the senses. Let me give you an everyday real-life scenario to explain what I mean. It might even have happened to you.

You are driving home, with your partner in the car beside you. As you turn at the traffic lights to get into your taman, you notice a 'new' restaurant in a row of shophouses. You remark to your partner. "Wah, got new restaurant. We should try it soon. Wonder when it opened". Your partner looks at you. "It's been there for a few months already la. I even told you about it but all you did was nod your head and mumbled something about England losing to Germany in the world cup".

Now, does the shop exist ? Did your eyes actually see the shop for all those months you were driving past it ? Why suddenly and now only you notice it ? Could it be because your partner was complaining you haven't taken her out for dinner recently and you have been thinking hard where to bring her to ?

I have seen and have also been involved in numerous occasions where I was given some accessory or tweak to audition, or was asked if I can hear any difference and the person put some 'thing' into the system. Or went to meddle with some 'thing'.

The issue to me is this. 1) If we do not know what the difference is that we are supposed to be hearing, we probably won't hear it. Not because we can't hear it, but because we 'don't' hear it. The brain by-passes it because it considers it unimportant. 2) Conversely, many times a tweak or accessory impresses people most is because it improves an area which the listener has been critical or unhappy about. So he/she has been paying lots of attention to the imperfection. And we all know when this happens, even a tiny imperfection will sound like a huge flaw to us. So when a tweak or accessory helps correct it even if only partially, we notice it immediately. And because we have been obssessed with solving it, this is often the reason why some people proclaims "WAH !!!! The new powercord makes a TREMENDOUS improvement. But others who have heard it and to whom the problem wasn't a big issue, was wondering "what's wrong with this guy and his/her ears ? Where got 'big' improvement. Got improvement lar, but its subtle only".

For your case, what was it you are expecting from the power cord you tested. Were you unsatisfied with any specific areas of your system. And very importantly, is that problem a basic one or it's just subtle fine-tuning. Then, is there any technical/logical reason why a better power cord will help improve/correct the imperfection ? E.g. power cord improves the purity of the power supply. So it usually gives better power, more dynamics, clearer sound, etc. But it SELDOM if ever, makes the sound warmer for e.g. So do give yourself a chance. It's not that your ears are not good enough to hear the difference. It could well be you don't really know what to listen for. Or you are not aware of the difference because they are not important to you.

Thanks WongKN.

Lost my postings twice

Anyway, I think this is what I typed earlier.

At the time of trying the power cords, I was experiencing boomy bass problem. Obviously, the power cords didnt help.

Subsequent listening sessions at friends' systems with different power cords didnt break the hardened ear wax.

So, I think I am destined to be insensitive to changes made by different power cords.

It could be a blessing in disguise as I dont have to take a huge personal loan or rob a bank to change all my computer/kettle power cords (last count I probably need 10 pces, excluding the AV equipment) to those as fat as anaconda.

Rocketman, herewith in your latest post I believe you hit the nail exactly on the source of your 'problem'.

At the time of trying the power cords, I was experiencing boomy bass problem. Obviously, the power cords didnt help.

Boomy bass is usually caused by some very fundamental system problems. Problems that accessories and tweaks are exactly NOT meant or able to fix. A lot of time boomy bass is caused by wrong speaker placement, bad room dimensions, insufficient room treatment (this one is a bit contentious and I myself do not fully subscribe to massive room treatment), and sometimes just plain equipment mismatch, e.g. an amp that is too weak to control a difficult to drive speaker. The gist is simply this : a power cord IS NOT MEANT TO, nor can it ever HOPE to, cure a boomy bass. It will be an extremely far-fetched possibility that a power cord can improve the power supply so much that a weak amp suddenly took Viagra and can now control a Maggie, Apogee, Magico, and such speakers. So if you have that boomy bass problem, you HAVE to fix it at the source. As mentioned above : speaker placement, equipment matching, and so forth. NEVER EVER dream of fixing such fundamental issues with your system with relatively simple tweaks like power cord, interconnect, 'tuning cups', and so forth. The world just doesn't work like that.

Guys, you think my previous post is long ? You haven't seen me when I was at my peak !! :

WongKN,

You are right. I realised that power cord wont help solve my boomy bass problem. Apart from trying the power cords, I did some drastic changes that included changing amps and speakers. I almost gone overboard to reconstruct my room to certain dimensions which apparently would solve the boomy bass. If not for the home minister, my room would be "mutilated and disfigured".

I now come to the conclusion that it is a slippery slope all the way to Audio Nirvana and resigned to the fact that it will forever remain elusive.

If you change a power cord, it may open a Pandora box which may end up changing the whole system. A friend of mine has done just that and more. He even pulled a dedicated 32A supply to cater for his new set up!! Of course, he didnt do that because of power cord but his strong desire to challenge himself. God knows how long this system, which cost an arm and leg, will stay with him as the last only lasted 6 months.

Accept the limitations in our systems, sit back and enjoy the music. Skip those tracks that give problems to your system and you will forever in bliss.

Really, no itch.

I had been trying not to visit hifi4sale, but fail.

Me too Mr Chua....

I know mugen is play lady gaga. here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoNdr0AbttI

Guys, be a man, face your problems head-on !
If you have a problem with the system, how can you just skip or don't play certain tracks ? What happens if the album happens to be Brothers In Arms by Dire Straits and the tracks with problem are Money for Nothing ? All the best songs are the ones with the problem. So you end up playing the not so good songs instead !!

WongKN wrote:

bimmerman wrote:Yeah, you guys go buy more powercords, software and such... Me i'm saving up for a pair of Westminsters

So you think.
The BAD news is that recently I got to know this guy who has a pair of Westminsters. He has tried every commonly recommended amps for his speakers from all the so-called high-sensitivity, valve, or SET gurus. Eventually he told me he found the best amp to drive his Westminsters. And it is ....

Krell FBP-450.

I kid you not.

...or was it a Krell FPB-600 to drive a pair of Tannoy Lancasters ?
Or different owner we're talking about here ?

bimmerman wrote:Krell FPB to drive Westminsters??? Surely that cannot be true. Maybe the dude has a room the size of a football field? But there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy says Hamlet. So be that the truth then I'll wager the KAV-300i might fair nicely too. To a lesser degree of course. Or how about Mark Levinson's 20Watt monoblocks. Those won't break the bank these days.

I too was sceptical. The owner told me "Oh yes of course LOTS of amps drive the Westminster very well. Those SETs sounded very lush and nice. But nothing beats the FBPs. I asked him how on earth he can feel safe with 450Watts of muscle driving a speaker with over 90dB sensitivity. He says it can be terrifying at times. But that I ain't heard nothing yet until I hear those FBPs drive the Westminsters. Unfortunately no, I haven't had a chance to hear them yet so I have to take the owner's words for it.

WongKN wrote:Guys, be a man, face your problems head-on !
If you have a problem with the system, how can you just skip or don't play certain tracks ? What happens if the album happens to be Brothers In Arms by Dire Straits and the tracks with problem are Money for Nothing ? All the best songs are the ones with the problem. So you end up playing the not so good songs instead !!

Yeah ! Mr. Moderator telling you all how it's done !!

Spend more $$$ till u get the right sound!
It's really "Money for Nothing" ..... coz I want my MTV !

Muahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

WongKN wrote:Rocketman, herewith in your latest post I believe you hit the nail exactly on the source of your 'problem'.

At the time of trying the power cords, I was experiencing boomy bass problem. Obviously, the power cords didnt help.

Boomy bass is usually caused by some very fundamental system problems. Problems that accessories and tweaks are exactly NOT meant or able to fix. A lot of time boomy bass is caused by wrong speaker placement, bad room dimensions, insufficient room treatment (this one is a bit contentious and I myself do not fully subscribe to massive room treatment), and sometimes just plain equipment mismatch, e.g. an amp that is too weak to control a difficult to drive speaker. The gist is simply this : a power cord IS NOT MEANT TO, nor can it ever HOPE to, cure a boomy bass. It will be an extremely far-fetched possibility that a power cord can improve the power supply so much that a weak amp suddenly took Viagra and can now control a Maggie, Apogee, Magico, and such speakers. So if you have that boomy bass problem, you HAVE to fix it at the source. As mentioned above : speaker placement, equipment matching, and so forth. NEVER EVER dream of fixing such fundamental issues with your system with relatively simple tweaks like power cord, interconnect, 'tuning cups', and so forth. The world just doesn't work like that.

Guys, you think my previous post is long ? You haven't seen me when I was at my peak !! :

I agree with your good posting.

Bass boom is room associated residue in passive mode whereby speakers assume an active role and the inducer of the boom. So to solve the bass boom, you should first look into the speakers' placement within the given room.

But seriously ... Bass-boom related problems are usually just down to these few factors:

1) Insufficient power from amp to control & damp the speakers

2) Poor speaker placement & listening position.

3) Room acoustics.


Solution:

1) Spend $$$, get a better amp. Or downgrade to wimpier speakers. They just might give u a more musical system.

2) Experiment with speaker placements & listening positions. There is no one single golden rule for this. Every speaker has its own acoustic radiation pattern and how these interact with the room boundaries are as unique as a fingerprint.

3) Just shitass luck that your room has certain dimensions that are so unfriendly to certain musical note's frequencies. This one would actually cost u the most to fix. Either u need to splurge on Room treatment stuff like broadband bass absorbers or build/shift to a new listening room. Also check out other forums where people build their home studios and how they fix such problems: Gearslutz.com and avsforum.com are good starting places, to name a few. And a word of caution: so called "acoustic foam" and chicken egg cartons don't do jack for Bass problems.

And NO amount of cable, whether its power cable, or interconnect or speaker cable (however exotic) can ever solve fundamental flaws in the environmental acoustics of the reproduced sound.

... and I am quite skeptical of those small round stuff that (some) hifi people stick on the wall that can also (claim to) fix bass boom issues. The physics here just don't add up. We're talking metre-length wavelengths here vs. small 20sen coin wall fixtures. I'd say the long bad-ass wavelength will whoop the 20sen-like coin thingy anytime, anyday.

WongKN, very well said. You've covered all the bases. Knowing what to listen for is key. Knowing how to fix issues is where Sifus like you & Mugen can really help. It's all down to experience and knowledge after all.

From the perspective of someone not so well versed, the long and the short of it is if I may inadequately summarize :
1. Power cords do not change sound.
2. Power cords do not change quality of recordings.
3. Power cords optimize the power flow from your wall supply to your gear.
4. Your gear performs at its optimum because of the unabated incoming power supply.
5. Some power cords perform better with amp or source because they are able to supply what is required better.

Hence, Bassraptors findings :
Cardas: A bit languid sounding. Good match for Ayre amps
Oyaide: Powerful presentation, but lacks some finesse
Acoustic Zen: Loads of bass, lacked some subtlety
Puresonic: Very cheap, rough sounding. But verycheap.
Black Rhodium: Great value, smooth balance
Standard pc: Best value (free with gear). Best of all, you'll never know any difference if you stick with them!

The above is a description of the ability of said source/amp to use the power channeled thru the CORD. The emphasis here is on the usage of power by the gear.

Please point out if i am mistaken, so i can learn from this. TQ

the archer shall rest his bow..courtesy of WONGKN:),the V-DOSC (Wavefront Sculpture) technology could probably solve the placement problems - however, such technologies are currently deemed "overkill" for home hifi - i hope L'Acoustics make some hybrid version for HiFi:), currently each cost 3 times more than a westminster, and only fit an outdoor modular system for live sound reproduction - but oh so sweet...

jokiarch wrote:
Bass boom is room associated residue in passive mode whereby speakers assume an active role and the inducer of the boom. So to solve the bass boom, you should first look into the speakers' placement within the given room.

To be more precise, Bass boom is caused by constructive interference between the speaker's incident waves overlapping with reflected waves due to the sidewalls, rear walls, top ceiling & bottom floor. And to some extent, the front wall also, as bass freqs tend to radiate in a omni pattern from the loudspeaker (as opposed to mids and highs which become much more directional in radiation).
Conversely, when the interferences are destructive (ie. cancel each other out), this is known as a "null" or suck-out effect.

These reflections can be further classified into 2 common conditions:
1) Room Modes , which are the axial ,tangential and oblique, reflections giving rise to standing waves within the room (some spots with really loud boom, some spots with nulls aka suck-out effects). Hence a room's "modal response".
There are plenty of free Excel sheet calculators from the Net to help u calc. these boom freqs. Speaker placement won't really cure these problems. The only solution would be acoustic treatment. Professional venues use "Helmholtz Resonators" to fight this problem. But Helmholtz resonators (HR) aren't really suitable in home environments as they are too freq specific, and expensive to construct. most HR's need to be custom made. If there's any shop trying to sell you off-the-shelf HR stuff , they're BS'ing you coz in the first place, HR's act on super specific freqs only and more likely than not , these won't be the ones (even if they might be real HR's in the 1st place) that are required in your own listening room. HR's don't work on a "range of Freqs", but instead only on one particular tuned freq although it's "Q" factor can be tuned higher or lower such that it also absorbs freqs that are closer to its design frequency. One can imagine it's absorption graph being similar to a Gaussian Distribution curve.


2) Room boundary conditions. These are way more sinister but also more easily fixed: The placement of the speakers within a room, at certain positions would also cause these booms & suckouts. Also, due to reflection (and hence wave inteference) from the walls/ceilings/floors, but this is mainly due to the relation of the speaker placement within the confines of the room. More sinister because it's boom characteristics are unpredictable. Yet at the same time, u can more easily rectify by speaker placement, and listening position. Trial & Error plus general use to absorption & diffusion treatments can yield surprisingly good results for the home hifi consumer.



And one more thing, some may be tempted to use electronic correction to counteract boom problems. The caution here is that this is a very dangerous thing to do on home electronics and it's not to be attempted by non-professionals. Here's why: While those automated calibrators would EQ-down boom freqs, these would also EQ-up what it perceives to be nulls.
The EQ-ups can easily overload an amp's driving ability or exceed the woofer's mechanical excursion limit, resulting in hardware damage. $$$$ gone!

Hmmm... has anyone tried hanging a whole bunch of unused power cords on the walls to see if it does anything to the sound ?

mugenfoo wrote:
Hmmm... has anyone tried hanging a whole bunch of unused power cords on the walls to see if it does anything to the sound ?

Hmmm, very tempting... running out of drawers space to keep them out of sight ... may string them together on the wall as exhibit as a 'post hi-fi depression' art statement of the 21st century

Thanks for the invaluable dissertation of the subject matter, this was something I asked our moderator yesterday after a session at AI ... I do have I believe an acoustic problem rather than hardware problem in my listening area aka living room. May not be specifically be 'bass boom', but somehow when you listen to the music, you just know something is missing or lacking (presence, body etc). I must admit my gears are not on par with the ones I was listening to, but I noted the room was 'lightly' treated (yesterday's session) as compared to others (say in Hiwaylaser's, was there Saturday, very heavily treated) and same thing with Absolute AV at Amcorp but the sounds were least to say, way fantastic as compared to my set up.

As rightly pointed up, I don't have much of a choice with regards of the dimensions/room boundaries limitation and the reality of hi-fi in a home environment, I just have to work on the speaker placement and small room treatment.. have to patiently work on it..

Otherwise, just have to swallow more bitter pills and thinner wallet to sooth the depression, like yesterday, ended up with another phono amp after the listening session

zeebee, did you check on the costs of the power cords used during your sessions at Hiwaylaser and Absolute AV???

Thank you guys for the above.

WongKN, I am not a quitter by choosing to skip trouble tracks to play on my system. I have considered various options to tame the boomy bass but each scores badly on WAF. The home minister prefers a room as plain as possible.

Though I didnt elaborate much in my earlier posts, one of the options was to remove and raise the ceiling height, reconfigured the room shape with partitions and wooden panels on one side of the walls to create irregular surfaces. (I actually bought some wooden panels ready to tackle the bull by the horn. But, when I gone through the mess it would create, I chickened out.) The mere thought of doing this is enough to drain you mentally.

Bass traps was also considered and Helmholtz Resonator was certainly on my list along with 80kg Fibre glass/Rockwool panels, etc.

The other options was to set up another system in the living room. Now I have a cluttered living room. =P. A friend also has the same situation and we both termed it as the new symptom of Audiophile-titis.

So, I surrender lah and opted for the easier way out. As one of my friends always says, Life Is Too Short, Sit Back And Enjoy The Music.

And one more thing, I dont have boomy bass in my living hall, but my plaster ceiling rattles when I play Stop This World by Diana Krall.

Perhaps someone should come out with a song Stop This S**t ?

mugenfoo wrote:

Hmmm... has anyone tried hanging a whole bunch of unused power cords on the walls to see if it does anything to the sound ?

Most certainly. They help to reduce reflections.

mugenfoo wrote:
...or was it a Krell FPB-600 to drive a pair of Tannoy Lancasters ?
Or different owner we're talking about here ?

FPB-600..

Too bad that ain't have the chance to audition it. Peasant still hoping to have more chances to audition nice systems.

Still a long way to learn from sifus here.

123_rocketman wrote:And one more thing, I dont have boomy bass in my living hall, but my plaster ceiling rattles when I play Stop This World by Diana Krall.

Perhaps someone should come out with a song Stop This S**t ?

u can try adding poles to "brace" the plaster ceiling from vibrating ...
like those used for pole-dancing (, ok lah, no need such strong ones lah). Who knows, u can also get some "extra" form of entertainment from those poles as well.