Denon DL-103

solid_snake wrote:Guys, check out the link,nice post on Denon 103. Thorsten view pretty much sump up my own experience.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=346#346

The moral of the story, as I read it while listening to the DL-103 groove out PF's Dark Side of The Moon, seems to be that everything has a context, and like all things, the DL-103 has one too.

I totally see how the DL-103 is meant to be forgiving. From what I see from the design of the cart, it has it's own little suspension system inside, and should work with just about any tone arm you care to mount it on. I'd much rather prefer a forgiving set up and component as I don't listen to only audiophile approved recordings. Life's too short and there's too much music out there to be had.

cmboy wrote:Errrr, lemme stir shit pot this evening. Don't also think your phono stage is the last word in the chain. Since you've a Denon to play play, how about a very compatible step up transformer stage.

I'm heading into that arena to play play. Search around, few hundred notes can get quite a good one for a start. Forget those that are asking silly prices unless you wanna splash more.

gotta be careful with impedance matching of the cart itself, 103 and 103r has different internal impedance, and also gotta consider the load impedance to the phono stage after that. But with matching sut's there's no rocket science.

A few mc step ups gel with the 103 , altec 4722 green cans, cinemag 3440a's , utc a11's to name a few ymmv

anyone wanting one of the rare utc's can give me a shout ay [right]

I'm getting something new. I dismissed vintage stuff in this particular case.

Why la bro?

(Just guessing...) Maybe he's getting the new Pipit 22L phono stage, recently reviewed by non other than the resident big shaky bird dude.

.. or maybe one of those ultra modern decks full of spaceage metal, acrylic or carbon fibre materials and fancy ceramic bearings & mag-lev spindles.

LOL!

Pee peet? you're making me choke on my very nice nasi lemak for dinner lah...cough! cough! arrrggggg!

mugenfoo wrote:(Just guessing...) Maybe he's getting the new Pipit 22L phono stage, recently reviewed by non other than the resident big shaky bird dude.

.. or maybe one of those ultra modern decks full of spaceage metal, acrylic or carbon fibre materials and fancy ceramic bearings & mag-lev spindles.

How's the pipit phono stage anyway la? Heard a lot about it here and there. You used to own one ma rite?

Pipit-1 & Pipit-2.

Pipit-1 was really MAGICAL for vocals.

Pipit-2 was ok, but didn't quite match well with some budget MC cart i had ... so out it went to the for-sale thread and was snapped up within days.

Amazing s/hand value. Got alot of prowlers out there eyeing for used Pipits in the local market.

If my personal preference, gimme a very well designed, lowest noise possible, capable of high current output, discrete transistor circuitry over bunch of opamp circuitry. For mostly MM, a well designed tube phono can be quite satisfying too.

Got ... totally discrete homebrewed phono with not a SINGLE opamp in its path ... but with multicurve, and remote control convenience, the AIME multicurve phono is the one to drool over (within sane and affordable levels).

Or a really ultra low-noise discrete (also not a single OpAmp or chip in sight but with really low noise FETs) that can handle a 0.2mV cart without any step up tranny, the Krell KPE-Reference phono. Too bad its discontinued already. (also within sane and affordable levels).

For full blown cost-no-object Phono ... Try going for a Boulder unit. The price i dare not even ask.

Speaking about MC step ups, I'll prefer the new production over some vintage, because stereo matching may (I say may...)pose some issues. Transformers being transformers, new ones are likely using better quality iron core, wires and other quality parts available this 21st century. Besides, I'm guessing they're likely tuned or voiced for Moving Coil, not so much for microphones or studio use, which there's other more suitable models for that purpose in the maker's range. As good vintage may seem so, even many swearing by them, I view it differently in my particular case. Alright, if you have acquired very very nice and highest quality vintages (not just being rare), consider yourself as the lucky few. Lastly the vintage item price can make me puke most of the time. Look at those old builtup Denon SUT's (at least 2-3 decades old, NOS?) Audio Technica, Audionote or other makes...wanna make me cough cough!. I would love to have a Hashimoto SUT but the price, maybe in another time. OK, meanwhile I'll have my fun with these little cans of goodness in due course.

This came from Thorsten Loesch, a well known guru and addict in all turntables.. you might wanna reconsider again based on the below technical reason...YMMV

Difference in electric - modern MC cartridges (the better
ones anyway) have very low impedances (< 10 Ohm is common) and use
very strong magnet systems. The 103 uses an old style Alnico magnet and
has coils that are no heavier than modern cartridges, but wich are wound
with much finer wire and have more turns, meaning the DCR is 40 Ohm and
the inductance is notable.
Now that means that the 103 cannot
be used with (most) modern MC Stepup transformers, they usually are
optimised for very low impedance sources and loose extension at the
frequency extremes (already a somewhat weak area) and due to the
relations to the magnetic core also resolution is lost.
What this
means is that the 103 is actually MUCH more at home with a studio
Microphone stepup transformer with a nominal 200 Ohm primary impedance
(common types are 200:10..15K) and it should be loaded quite lightly
with something in the 500R - 1K region. Getting good medium impedance
microphone stepup transformers is not easy, meaning you may be better
off using active stepups.
The list that I suggested earlier falls into the top few list of the ' matching ' SUT's be it a microphone SUT or not....


good luck ya..

Thorsten's quite a good writer. He's an obvious fan of the 103... and provides sound reasoning as to why he is. And some good tips too!!

Haha, thats Thorsten, and I'm cmboy.. views can and will differ.

Free world man. Life would be so much better if everyone recognised that to be a fact.

JediSavant wrote:Thorsten's quite a good writer. He's an obvious fan of the 103... and provides sound reasoning as to why he is. And some good tips too!!

And relevance is the biggest key point if one understands it well enough

i pretty much read it as no need to be so anal about it all, if it fits and one is happy with it so much the better...

Actually we are luckier today than years before where so much information is readily available in the other parts of the world pertaining to the use of a certain component. That alone can shine clear light to the right path without spending and wasting too much of our precious hard earned money.

One does not need to understand rocket science to achieve similar results. At times I find it rather amusing that similar methods are tried, tested and reults apconveyed by many around the world.

Everyone is entitled to their views ....

After having a brief stint with a DL-103 (amongst a Grado Signature, some vintage Shures, a couple of Benz Micros and a few Clearaudio carts), here's my take on it:

The DL-103's biggest strength is its pleasantness and overall smoothness by errors of omission. Add to that its ultra-friendly nature in playing worn and slightly scratched LPs means its (was) a favourite workhorse within the broadcast industry.

The DL-103's biggest drawback is that you WILL lose a sizable amount of detail that the deepest recesses of the vinyl groove has to offer. It's also a rather coloured cart, imparting a sense of preference for certain genre of music over others.

So, fun as it may be to toy around with a DL-103, it's doesn't quite go toe-to-toe with modern carts today that have benefited from today's precision engineering and advanced mfg techniques, even on a dollar to dollar comparison.

So, let's get it all out on the table for once then (perhaps not for all, but at least for once)...

In terms of dollar to dollar comparisons what would you punters put forward in the same range? Let's say RM800 to RM1500.00... It wouldn't hurt to mention the qualities of the particular cartridges either.

[quote="mugenfoo"]Everyone is entitled to their views ....

After having a brief stint with a DL-103 (amongst a Grado Signature, some vintage Shures, a couple of Benz Micros and a few Clearaudio carts), here's my take on it:

The DL-103's biggest strength is its pleasantness and overall smoothness by errors of omission. Add to that its ultra-friendly nature in playing worn and slightly scratched LPs means its (was) a favourite workhorse within the broadcast industry.

The DL-103's biggest drawback is that you WILL lose a sizable amount of detail that the deepest recesses of the vinyl groove has to offer. It's also a rather coloured cart, imparting a sense of preference for certain genre of music over others.

So, fun as it may be to toy around with a DL-103, it's doesn't quite go toe-to-toe with modern carts today that have benefited from today's precision engineering and advanced mfg techniques, even on a dollar to dollar comparison.

Yes everyone is entitled to their views so here are mine ya...

More details can be at the expense of musicality, sure there are plenty of carts out there that will out detail the Denon but SOME are at the expense of musicality throwing out bags of details from the speakers in a non cohesive manner. IN some ways clinical la.

ok I admit the Denon is still a budget level cart ( owing to its 40 year old design, then again the cost of it today could well be due to its age long engineering costs that have been recouped , selling the same old design for so many years ) but looking at cost aside, modified version of it really can put a lot of enjoyment into the music, thus a bang for buck kinda cart. Then again the 103R is really a step up in many areas to the 103 la, cannot be called the same, have heard the 103M ( no longer produced ) is even better in some more areas.

Yes, its conical stylus will not be able to extract every inch of detail in the grooves of the vinyl but presents music in a very comfortable way, my take on this cart even after the modification,

1) micro details and also airiness could be better
2) imaging is good but not like a line contact stylus based cart could do
3) bass could be a lot tighter and deeper, could somewhat be lacking in some music at times

For not much money more the Audio Tecnica's especially the AT33PTG is a way quieter and detailed cart, very probably due to the construction of its line contact stylus.

Once again YMMV ...

Hooked up my newly built up pair of MC step ups for audition and testing, spinning a few extremely familiar and favourite music. I had to put my hand below my jaw to prevent it dropping further. Its that good, leaping into another realm of musicality unheard off before with my rig. It also signals the departure of "electronic like preamplification". Its apparent there's no turning back from this route despite whatever hyped FET's, VLN (very low noise) transistors or super opamps may do. No more transistor or valve inputs at this source stage.

So you plug the cart into this puppy before feeding it into an mm phono stage, which is then leashed to your amplifier?

Great news, CMBoy...

A MC step up transformer is the way to go to really be able to ' listen ' to the actual cart you are using. The true ' purist ' way of doing it right with MC carts...

So which trans did your eventually settle on?

Active amplification? Hmmm.... can't comment too much bout them, there are people that swears by them, then again have they heard a really good trans? ( Easier route for impedance matching )

Almost any good trans MC step up will provide a jaw dropping experience over active stages any time.. naturally the musicality offered by a good trans is a known fact by vinyl connoiseurs all over the world.. IMHO

Then again as always...YMMV again..

Wait till you try different trans... if you're into modern MC's. the Hashimoto HM-3's will make you go

Right!, I'll reveal them as a pair of Cinemag SUT. I would luv the highly rated Hashimoto but its price is a primary concern here, amongst other factors that I think the Cinemag is a better all rounder and starting point. After seriously auditioning and evaluating its performance, I have nothing (not even little) against it but heaps of praise on its fidelity. Its like you step from a Camry into a BMW.

Having said this, as I mentioned before I chose new production based on highly possible new and improved construction, better voiced, closer tolerances and better matching for vinyl playback. In the case of transformer construction, it ain't no rocket science and its always possible current science and technology can and will produce something better than something from half a century ago. Not to dampen other peoples enthusiasm for NOS or vintage components but not all old things are that good all the time nor are they optimum for most known applications in modern high fidelity, unless its something very specific one is looking for. The trick is to match the voltage of the cartridge, not so much the impedance and this will involve some mathematical calculations with known data.

Right, I think I've made the right choice for now till my bekside again become itchy and stir my own shitpot again next year.

Are you using this new puppy with the DL-103?

JediSavant wrote:Are you using this new puppy with the DL-103?

Nope.

So why is this puppy being discussed in this particular doghouse?

I may get a 103 (not 103R) later on when budget allow, for some reference point. The last time I had one of these was so long ago, but did have very close encounters with 103R many times.

Hmm, have to run to shop to find some copper bolts for earth points.

Happy lunchtime meantime!

t

cmboy wrote:Right!, I'll reveal them as a pair of Cinemag SUT. I would luv the highly rated Hashimoto but its price is a primary concern here, amongst other factors that I think the Cinemag is a better all rounder and starting point. After seriously auditioning and evaluating its performance, I have nothing (not even little) against it but heaps of praise on its fidelity. Its like you step from a Camry into a BMW.

Having said this, as I mentioned before I chose new production based on highly possible new and improved construction, better voiced, closer tolerances and better matching for vinyl playback. In the case of transformer construction, it ain't no rocket science and its always possible current science and technology can and will produce something better than something from half a century ago. Not to dampen other peoples enthusiasm for NOS or vintage components but not all old things are that good all the time nor are they optimum for most known applications in modern high fidelity, unless its something very specific one is looking for. The trick is to match the voltage of the cartridge, not so much the impedance and this will involve some mathematical calculations with known data.

Right, I think I've made the right choice for now till my bekside again become itchy and stir my own shitpot again next year.

Ahh the Cinemags, 3440AH's I presume...

Actually be it NOS or modern trans, the key point is that all transformers impart their own signature and will very much depend on the character of the cart used , plus the phono stage in the system.

For ex. as much as what was raved about all over the web regarding suitability of a marriage between Cinemags and the Denon 103/103R, it sounded mediocre at best in my system, a far cry from the German Bayer Dynamics I auditioned ( and eventually bought ) , but I have to say it that the output voltage of the cart means very little in my application, the step up ratio which also translates into impedance makes hell of a difference in the presentation of the sound. Not only that la, the winding type offered in the Bayer's probably had a lot to do with it as well.

Into a standard 47k phono
preamp, the effective input impedance of the low gain (1:16 ratio) is
184 ohms. At 1:30, the effective input impedance is 52 ohms.


As much as the Cinemags ( presuming its the same model la ) offers high 30db gain, the best sounding mode in my system was at 1:16 ratio ( 24db ) and you would think that the Denon 103R having such a low 0.2mv output would favour the high gain step up ratio mode. Even then so, the Bayer Dynamics SUT that offered only a 1:15 step up ration ( single primary only ) sounded far superior to it.

Then again if I was using a different cartridge with a different internal impedance and loading impedance, it would all be different again la.

So once again its all about component matching and I previously thought it only applied to amplifiers , preamps, speakers and etc..!!

But whatever it is la, at the end of the day the satisfaction comes when we are able to enjoy what we have even more.

JediSavant wrote:So why is this puppy being discussed in this particular doghouse?

Woof!

For what it's worth, I'm finding that the AIME phonostage is working very well with the DL-103...

For what it's worth, I'm finding that the AIME phonostage is working very well with the DL-103...

Assuming you brought the the AIME, maybe Jedi you should do a AIME 'review'

JediSavant wrote:For what it's worth, I'm finding that the AIME phonostage is working very well with the DL-103...

The magic is in the load matching (with the DL-103), the gain matching (bridging both the cart to the amp), the good honest hand-matched discrete components, oversized transformer, expensive internal phono-cable wirings and a no-nonsense thick aluminium casing that all adds up to this little dynamite of a phono box.

yeah, um, duh, ditto to what he said...

....and I've been hearing things on records that I haven't heard before... On certain tracks of Roxy Music's Avalon album, the kick drum and bass lines exhibited clarity and tautness never heard and felt before in my system...

...On complicated sometimes overwhelming Winwood/Clapton live tunes, the bass lines, kick drums and guitar riffs are more clearly defined than ever before...

cyh wrote:

For what it's worth, I'm finding that the AIME phonostage is working very well with the DL-103...

Assuming you brought the the AIME, maybe Jedi you should do a AIME 'review'

I literally just bought it, like an hour ago...

Wah so good meh..

it's all about synergy, dixchen old chap!

heh heh heh have yet to hear a good active stage la but there could always be a first! Yes synergy is the keyword here...

Aren't all phono stages active to a degree in that they have to amplify a signal?

JediSavant wrote:

cyh wrote:

For what it's worth, I'm finding that the AIME phonostage is working very well with the DL-103...

Assuming you brought the the AIME, maybe Jedi you should do a AIME 'review'

I literally just bought it, like an hour ago...

Star Wars: You don't know the Power of the Dark Side of the Force!

Star Trek: Resistance is futile .... You will be assimilated.

JediSavant wrote:Aren't all phono stages active to a degree in that they have to amplify a signal?

MC step ups are passive m devices using transformers ma...

dixchen wrote:

JediSavant wrote:Aren't all phono stages active to a degree in that they have to amplify a signal?

MC step ups are passive m devices using transformers ma...

But the phono stage still requires active electronics to amplify the signal and also pass thru the RIAA playback-filter networks before it goes into the pre-amp or Integrated amp.

MC Step-ups by themselves are useless without an active Phonostage.

Amplifying a signal through passive transformer winding ratios compared to through active electronics, op amplifiers can never be called the same le. Riaa correction? Not needed really unless you intend to optimize every single old records that there is out there. Can certainly live without one.

dixchen wrote:Amplifying a signal through passive transformer winding ratios compared
to through active electronics, op amplifiers can never be called the
same le.

A passive transformer (ie SUT) can NEVER amplify anything. Perhaps you should look up some fundamentals of electronics and the principles behind how a "transformer" (in the electrical sense) works.

dixchen wrote: Riaa correction? Not needed really unless you intend to
optimize every single old records that there is out there. Can certainly live without one.

Actually no, you can't do without the equalisation portion of vinyl playback (but whether you realise it or not is an entirely different matter altogether) .The playback of practically ALL records need some form of equalisation. RIAA happens to be the most common and widely adopted industry standard. Otherwise why don't you just try & plug your turntable's output directly to your amp's line inputs (eg. Aux, CD, or Tape) and share with us here if the sound you get is as expected or not.
Don't worry, you won't spoil anything in this small experiment above.

Perhaps you should also look up more resources on the 'Net and have a proper understanding on the fundamentals of recording and playback via a phono (ie LP, Vinyl, Record...) system.

Oh my my! All vinyl records need RIAA equalization for proper playback, thats a fact. First time I've heard anyone say RIAA isn't needed. I hope dix isn't ignorant to the fact there's always a RIAA equalization network built into every MM phono stage.

SUT is a voltage transformer to step up the low output to something useable for the next stage of phono amplification i.e. MM phono stage, simple as that. Cartridge output must be a good match to ensure the phono stage will not be overloaded or under voltage to be within the input voltage range for the MM stage to perform at its best.

Whoops, sorry guys, my mistake here there is but it's not adjustable I guess. Built into the tube circuit I have.

um... long live the DL-103.... Huzzah!

This should help clear the air re. Step ups and MC carts...

http://www.vinylengine.com/step-ups-and-mc-cartridges.shtml


yeah yeah, i know JediSv must be fuming in his head that his darling DL-103 thread kena hijack by MC and SUT topics... but too bad, DL-103 is also a MC cart so its relevant also.