Re: The "$$$ Expensive $$$" Super Snake Oils of the "audiophile" industry

by **htkaki** Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:03 pm

WongKN wrote:How many times must I explain ? I not as rich as the Jinjang guys. Also not as rich as you mah !

The last I checked, my gears still 6th miles below par compares to yours. Wait, that probably explain why the Dune is still under KIV. More so after Odyssey warming up at your second home. lol!

by sflam Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:07 pm

kakibook wrote:

I wonder how SFLam writes review on Nordost, MIT, Cardas, etc power cords. The expensive power cords have to be compared to 'kettle' one rite..

the stock cable that comes with components are normally the same quality as the kettle power cords.
now i use my diy power cord and a kimber pk10 (which is neutral sounding) as reference.

by **WongKN** Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:25 pm

I was once told that -everything- in the listening room will affect the sound, including ourselves. I was even told the joke that the clothes we wear will suck midrange and bass energy so we must listen in the nude ! What a Face

Anyway, I am curious why everyone wants to drink snake oil or apply it to the ears only. I remember the joke in one of the Stephen Chow movie (with Andy Lau and Ng Man Tat). Andy Lau was supposed to be a very stubborn fella. In chinese it's called 'ngan gang' (very hard neck). Ng Man Tat says of Andy Lau, that his neck is rock hard like after applied 'Yan Tou San Yau' (magic oil from India). Stephen Chow as usual gives his silly look and asks "Yan Tou San Yau" apply on the neck ? For what ? The rest you use your imagination la ! Laughing

by sflam Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:28 pm

i read somewhere that the perfect listening room must have only one pair of speakers
if there are other speakers unused in the room, the speaker cones and the internal air inside the speaker boxes and boxes themselves will resonate and color the sound.
if this is true, then every dealer's showroom in town is imperfect cos there are lots of speakers on display. so when we audition the speakers that we are interested in buying, we r actually hearing colored sound.

by **WongKN** Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:49 pm

There is actually a possible physical explanation for this.

You have heard of the Helmholtz resonator right ? In its simplest form, it is a box with a port (hole with a tube) and filed inside with some damping material. A particular Helmholtz resonator works on a specific frequency, determined by the dimensions of the box, the diameter of the hole and the length of the tube. How effective is it sucks up the designed frequency is in some way determined by how much damping is inside the box.

Now, take a look at the typical boxed speaker. Break it down to its basic phsical form. Other than the fact that it also has some drivers/tweeters and a set or two of binding posts, what -exactly- is the speaker ?

A Helmholtz resonator.

by Mikapoh Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:50 pm

[quote="sflam"]

kakibook wrote:

the stock cable that comes with components are normally the same quality as the kettle power cords.
now i use my diy power cord and a kimber pk10 (which is neutral sounding) as reference.

Except for a few establish brands such as naim audio. Very Happy

Their stock power cables are pre-selected wires and is not the same quality as the kettle cords albeit look alike.
This is confirmed by the guy previously working in their factory.

by sflam Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:01 pm

maybe that's why some stock power cords sound just as good, if not better than, audiophile power cords.

i know the early mark levinson amps came with power cords sourced from belden.

by DrWho Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:01 pm

sflam wrote:
dr who wrote:
No apology needed. It is up to Admin and the Moderators to steer this forum to your desired destination.
LYN has a kopitiam section for light topics. AVS forum, IMO one of the best AV forum, is where serious stuffs are exchanged. I suppose you need to cater for all categories, serious forummers and others who also enjoy a bit of fun. This is your forum.

dr who, once a while we audiophiles must also relaks a bit lah. sometimes very frus after listening to million-ringgit system, go back and listen to own humble system and start swallowing snake oil and try to tweak to sound like million-ringgit system with minimal budget. so once a while, we crack some lousy jokes here lah.

but on a serious note...about placing tubes on top of speakers...i presume it's the resonances that 'affect' the sound.
what about the light bulbs in the room (living room or special listening room)? i hv energy-saving bulbs and normal incandescent light bulbs in my living room where the stereo system is. these will also resonate. what if someone has a crystal chandelier in the room? they will also resonate. will they change the sound?

A Million Ringgit system may not necessary sound good Wink

In fact a medium budget system could very well sound as good if not better than a Million Ringgit system if it is well implemented. You should not feel frustrated after listening to a Million Ringgit system, instead you should be happy because at 10% of the cost you could deliver 90% of that high end system sound. The Million Ringgit system owners are constantly under pressure to produce good sound. They are more stressed than you Very Happy

It is easier for the high end system to produce good sound but an average Joe’s system with plenty of good tweaks and well implementation could sound as good.
Anything sizable in the room would most probably affect the sound. It is a matter of whether it could be audible by the human ear or more importantly whether the listener could hear the difference.
As for the chandelier, I have not experienced it before. I believe it will affect the sound but I personally would not want to try it. It would most probably skew the sound stage towards the chandelier thus producing a taller but narrower sound stage. As for the bulbs, I think their locations would make them irrelevant.
On the subject of snake oil, the cable be it interconnect or power cable is one of the most controversial. Just because one cannot hear a difference it does not mean the difference is not there. Let take an example of Nordost Odin cable, it would most probably make no different in a mini combo set or someone with tin ear but in a well setup system one would hear the difference. Such cables are meant for very well to do owners. These owners are almost all successful people who are no fools or else they would not be who they are. Just because some people can’t afford them, out of jealousy and envy they ridicule such products. If these so called “fools” want the products and are happy to part with their money so be it. For the record I don’t have any commercially available cables in my system.
Very Happy

by **elhefe** Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:04 pm

Intermission:

Friends....go and listen to some music for 15 minutes....It will do wonders....

by **WongKN** Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:11 pm

Dei, it is 4pm la. Most people are still working. Not everyone as rich as you, no need to work but can still upgrade like there's no tomorrow ! Laughing

by **elhefe** Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:14 pm

Aiyah....working also...still replying forum hehehehe....might as well go home early and listen to music....more healthy....

by **WongKN** Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:19 pm

I wonder if my boss will accept that excuse for me taking the rest of the day off. Laughing

Have to listen to elhefe la, he says to go home and listen to music. Boss will probably say "can. no need to come back to work here. ever". Laughing

by 123_rocketman Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:23 pm

WongKN wrote:I wonder if my boss will accept that excuse for me taking the rest of the day off. Have to listen to elhefe la, he says to go home and listen to music. Boss will probably say "can. no need to come back to work here. ever".

The trick is to get a hifikaki as your boss so that you can go to his house to listen to music. Better still, be your own boss and you can have a set up in your office. Very Happy

by 123_rocketman Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:28 pm

DrWho wrote:
sflam wrote:
dr who wrote:
No apology needed. It is up to Admin and the Moderators to steer this forum to your desired destination.
LYN has a kopitiam section for light topics. AVS forum, IMO one of the best AV forum, is where serious stuffs are exchanged. I suppose you need to cater for all categories, serious forummers and others who also enjoy a bit of fun. This is your forum.

dr who, once a while we audiophiles must also relaks a bit lah. sometimes very frus after listening to million-ringgit system, go back and listen to own humble system and start swallowing snake oil and try to tweak to sound like million-ringgit system with minimal budget. so once a while, we crack some lousy jokes here lah.

but on a serious note...about placing tubes on top of speakers...i presume it's the resonances that 'affect' the sound.
what about the light bulbs in the room (living room or special listening room)? i hv energy-saving bulbs and normal incandescent light bulbs in my living room where the stereo system is. these will also resonate. what if someone has a crystal chandelier in the room? they will also resonate. will they change the sound?

A Million Ringgit system may not necessary sound good In fact a medium budget system could very well sound as good if not better than a Million Ringgit system if it is well implemented. You should not feel frustrated after listening to a Million Ringgit system, instead you should be happy because at 10% of the cost you could deliver 90% of that high end system sound. The Million Ringgit system owners are constantly under pressure to produce good sound. They are more stressed than you It is easier for the high end system to produce good sound but an average Joe’s system with plenty of good tweaks and well implementation could sound as good.
Anything sizable in the room would most probably affect the sound. It is a matter of whether it could be audible by the human ear or more importantly whether the listener could hear the difference.
As for the chandelier, I have not experienced it before. I believe it will affect the sound but I personally would not want to try it. It would most probably skew the sound stage towards the chandelier thus producing a taller but narrower sound stage. As for the bulbs, I think their locations would make them irrelevant.
On the subject of snake oil, the cable be it interconnect or power cable is one of the most controversial. Just because one cannot hear a difference it does not mean the difference is not there. Let take an example of Nordost Odin cable, it would most probably make no different in a mini combo set or someone with tin ear but in a well setup system one would hear the difference. Such cables are meant for very well to do owners. These owners are almost all successful people who are no fools or else they would not be who they are. Just because some people can’t afford them, out of jealousy and envy they ridicule such products. If these so called “fools” want the products and are happy to part with their money so be it. For the record I don’t have any commercially available cables in my system.

IMHO, I dont think there is a correlation between being rich and being a skillful listener.

by sflam Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:28 pm

aisay elhefe, i want to get a job in yr company lah.

by DrWho Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:50 pm

[/quote]
IMHO, I dont think there is a correlation between being rich and being a skillful listener.[/quote]

Most true. One need not be a skillful listener to hear the difference. In fact one need not be an audiophile to hear the difference, good example is wife Smile

by **elhefe** Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:54 pm

sflam wrote:aisay elhefe, i want to get a job in yr company lah.

You can have my job. High level tea lady....I am doing morning shift....hehehehe...

by **elhefe** Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:55 pm

123_rocketman wrote:
WongKN wrote:I wonder if my boss will accept that excuse for me taking the rest of the day off. Have to listen to elhefe la, he says to go home and listen to music. Boss will probably say "can. no need to come back to work here. ever".

The trick is to get a hifikaki as your boss so that you can go to his house to listen to music. Better still, be your own boss and you can have a set up in your office.

Coincidently...el hefe means 'the boss' in Mexican...hehehehe...

by **kakibook** Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:30 pm

hi 123rocketman,

we will be coming to your place with the following snake oil

1. snake oil power cord using 7N copper

2. snake oil interconnect using superconductor

3. snake oil cable lifter using cloth hanger

4. snake oil equipment floating using magnetic isolation.

5. snake oil scalar field quantum resonance. last but not least,

6. metal box with glass resonators, curtesy of German auto haus

by **kakibook** Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:38 pm

DrWho wrote:

IMHO, I dont think there is a correlation between being rich and being a skillful listener.[/quote]

Most true. One need not be a skillful listener to hear the difference. In fact one need not be an audiophile to hear the difference, good example is wife Smile

[/quote]

No matter how much $$ spend on upgrade, my wife says its noise. either I marry a wrong wife or I put in the wrong cd.

by sflam Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:52 pm

kakibook wrote:

No matter how much $$ spend on upgrade, my wife says its noise. either I marry a wrong wife or I put in the wrong cd.

aisay kakibook,

according to yr profile u r a woman. so how can yr "wife says its noise"?

Unless, of course, in this modern world, u r a les.... Question

by **WongKN** Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:16 pm

I am saying it functions similar to a HR when it is not in use, not when it is in use. This i said could be one of the readons why when we put several speakers in a room, the sound gets affected sumtimes drastically. But they dun really act as proper HR bcos of the existence of the drivers. U n yr textbooks. I regret telling u abt checking textbooks back in thr days of the hcoc. Thr is s word that comes to mind but i ain't saying. Hahaha ! Laughing

In the world of hifi many things have yet to be explained which is why sum ppl swears by sum mods but others call them snake oil. If textbooks can be used to explain everything in hifi, everyone would get the best sound n all h4s forumers will be gurus! Laughing

by **WongKN** Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:19 pm

I always wonder abt that, why kakibook's profile claims to be female. Is 'she' really a lassie ? Actually lots of forumers likes to put misinformation into their profile.

by DrWho Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:24 pm

kakibook wrote:
No matter how much $$ spend on upgrade, my wife says its noise. either I marry a wrong wife or I put in the wrong cd.

Kakibook,
If I may, I would like to give you a great tip on how to handle your wife.

You must show her who wears the trouser at your house. In my house my words are law!

My wife, however is like the Supreme Court, interperates the law. pale

by sflam Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:29 pm

drwho wrote:

If I may, I would like to give you a great tip on how to handle your wife.

You must show her who wears the trouser at your house. In my house my words are law!

My wife, however is like the Supreme Court, interperates the law.

aisay dr who, i think u need karpal singh to defend u in the supreme court.. bounce

by bimmerman Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:30 pm

sflam wrote:
kakibook wrote:

No matter how much $$ spend on upgrade, my wife says its noise. either I marry a wrong wife or I put in the wrong cd.
aisay kakibook,
according to yr profile u r a woman. so how can yr "wife says its noise"?
Unless, of course, in this modern world, u r a les....

I guess in Kakibook's case, Les is definately more!!! Razz

by **Maxx Audio** Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:07 pm

WongKN wrote:I always wonder abt that, why kakibook's profile claims to be female. Is 'she' really a lassie ? Actually lots of forumers likes to put misinformation into their profile.

OMG... I met him... eerr. she before. Looks like a male to me and definitely ain't a tomboy or a tranny from any angle lah lol!

dr.who really funny. Very Happy

Talking about spkrs in the room, what if the other pair is also from the same brand? IIRC, a few other members here do have more than a pair of loudspeakers in their rooms.

by sflam Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:35 pm

maxx audio wrote:

Talking about spkrs in the room, what if the other pair is also from the same brand? IIRC, a few other members here do have more than a pair of loudspeakers in their rooms.

i hv actually touched the cones of unconnected speakers in a room with music playing and i could feel the cones vibrating, especialy when the music is loud and when the bass kicks in. so they must be generating some kind of low level sound.

by mugenfoo Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:31 pm

WongKN wrote:I am saying it functions similar to a HR when it is not in use, not when it is in use. This i said could be one of the readons why when we put several speakers in a room, the sound gets affected sumtimes drastically. But they dun really act as proper HR bcos of the existence of the drivers. U n yr textbooks. I regret telling u abt checking textbooks back in thr days of the hcoc. Thr is s word that comes to mind but i ain't saying. Hahaha !

Again, not true. The very fact that a speaker box is designed in conjunction with the driver, and the system as a whole spans a spectrum, means it CANNOT be a HR or be similar like a HR. The mechanically floating cone of a driver, even whether the speaker (in its unpowered state) has its terminals shorted or left open, still doesnt make it anywhere close to being similar to a HR.

WongKN wrote:
In the world of hifi many things have yet to be explained which is why sum ppl swears by sum mods but others call them snake oil. If textbooks can be used to explain everything in hifi, everyone would get the best sound n all h4s forumers will be gurus!

The danger is that some might tend to get too distracted into the empirical and anecdotal situation of "i don't know why it works, but it just does"...

If something works the way it does, then it deserves a well founded objective explanation, or if it lacks of such objectivite reasoning, then the subject definitely deserves more research into it. But taking a wrong assumption from the first point merely leads to more mis-information and mis-conceptions.

Back to the question of whats really is a HR, there are many well established references on the definition of a HR.

If you can furnish some references that a speakerbox (whether in-use or just sitting passively disconnected or with shorted terminals) also acts as a HR, pls show them here, and I shall stand corrected.

by mugenfoo Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:37 pm

sflam wrote:
maxx audio wrote:

Talking about spkrs in the room, what if the other pair is also from the same brand? IIRC, a few other members here do have more than a pair of loudspeakers in their rooms.

i hv actually touched the cones of unconnected speakers in a room with music playing and i could feel the cones vibrating, especialy when the music is loud and when the bass kicks in. so they must be generating some kind of low level sound.

They are not generating any sound on its own (due to lack of an electrical signal feeding them), but they are more accurately described as REFLECTING & re-radiating back certain sounds. The drivers of these unpowered speakers (but are vibrating due to the excitation of exernal sound waves) would reflect back with some sonic signature of its own, depending on a whole bunch of conditions including whether its terminals are shorted or not.

by **WongKN** Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:18 am

Suffice it to say that when I read that article by a hifi reviewer many years ago (I never claim this explanation is mine), his explanations were very logical to me and makes the most sense to me, i.e. it goes furthest to explaining how the extra speakers affect the sound like they do. Thus I say it is a possible explanation. In fact I recall a reader writing in the next issue debating the article and his arguements against it were similar to here. The reviewer, arguing that the speakers are functioning with a degree of similarity to helmholtz resonators continues to be the closest explanation to the phenomenon of why when we put another pair of unused speakes in the listening room, it affects the sound considerably, a lot more so than just an object of similar size would influence the sound. What I often heard mentioned by people, about how putting a pair of large, unplayed speaker inside the room often sucks away the bass seems most logically explained by this. I have read a lot of other explanations but all of them are not as convincing as this one. I can of course go and spend hours in the net googling for points for and against this theory, but I have already explained my reservations with the internet. I continue to believe the best way is to buy books from places like Kinokuniya. But Ok I am too lazy to spend time doing this because I am not that much into this factor. Thus the suggestion that it gives a possible explanation. You have to decide whether to accept or not. But it is your word against someone else and with due apologies, I am afraid I see more sense in the reviewer's arguements.

We often have to draw a line somewhere and fall back on intuition. I am a scientist by training and by profession but I know the pitfall of overly depending on science. I remember the point made earlier in this thread (by WongKK) who wrote that he talked to an audio engineer who are -very sure- that all power cords are the same and think that all cables sounds the same because of very solid electrical principles, principles that in fact our very society depends on to be facts and true or else our reality will actually cease to become logical. So when we hear differences between power cords, what do we do ? I thought that many of us decided to have faith and to trust our ears and intuition. What about the statement by the mastering engineers that CDs and LPs should sound the same ?

by **WongKN** Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:02 am

Yet another item to discuss/debate (i.e. another shit pot I am going to stir). I wonder if this might be classified as 'snake oil', or perhaps placebo effect. The best way is to start with a story (real one).

I think many people acknowledges the benefits of having proper equipment support, e.g. cones beneath a pre-amp and so forth. Recently (a few months ago) I was given the good fortune of listening to a high-end system along with my friends. Halfway through the listening session, one of my friends got up to adjust the spikes supporting the valve power amps. By adjust I mean he moved the spikes further out towards the edges of the amp. Immediately after, everyone thought the soundstage opened up, it became larger and the imaging better. Now, I had already know this technique and my group of friends have been very diligent and careful with the best equipment support we can humanly acheive. This story conveniently allows me to explain what we believe can be done by simply adjusting the position of the support cones or spikes.

The idea of supporting the equipment on good cones or spikes is supposedly well understood and for the channeling of vibration (for e.g.) away from the equipment. This should give improvement in the sound as the sensitive electronic components are now able to function better (according to the explanation I read la). The -positioning- of the cones/spikes will influence how efficient this effect is, for e.g. it is often recommended to put one cone just beneath the transformer as it is thought that most transformer will have minute vibrations so putting the support there gets them out of the component quickly without it polluting the sensitive electronic circuits. But how can one explain how moving the positions will affect the soundstage and imaging ?

So, what do you guys think here ? Snake oil ? Something explainable and based on solid scientific principles ?

by mugenfoo Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:14 am

If i may attempt this rather simple (but often overlooked) explanation is the reason by means of microphonics.

Mechanical vibrations (either from airborne sources such as a loudspeaker's output, or a hum from some equipment's transformer, or physical moving mechanisms like a spinning HDD or LP platter or CD transport) all contribute to microphony.

By the priciples of Maxwell's equations for electrical and magnetic relation and by Faraday's Laws of Induction, mechanical vibrations easily translate to electrical signals which then combine into the musical signal and hence, the resultant effect of such tweaks.

The change in the spikes or footers positions would affect both the Damping effect of such vibrations , and also give rise to different resonances that would occur between the equipment and support structure interfaces. And consequently, the electrical transfer function of these devices would correspondingly react with its differing mechanical support environment.

Without going into the more geeky & boring details (this means lots and lots of calculus stuff) ... this is the gist of how and why things like hifi racks, cones, footers, etc etc have a very audible effect on the resultant sonic presentation.

Heck, even vacuum-tubes (thermionic valves) are all microphonic to a certain extent. Some more than others. Thats why some mfgs go to the extent of fitting "Tube dampers" on their tube amps to counteract the effects of microphony on their amps.

As always, for those truly scientific enough to want to know more, I am of course more than happy to point in the direction of such established ink & paper references and more (aside from the obvious wikipedias and other Internet resources readily available).

Hifi is not the only field to have dabbled in vibration and its effects on signal output. If one is privileged enough to come across, the IAI has a electro-mechanical vibration Lab test facility in the Negev desert which can generate a flat 0.1 Hz to 1MHz MECHANICAL vibration stress test lab environment for the purposes of military avionics hardening and stress-certifications.

by JediSavant Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:06 am

...the oil seems to be thickening....

by **elhefe** Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:51 am

WongKN, MF,

It was Friday night, no work tomorrow....and the best thing you guys did was this debate????? lol!

Maybe you should revive HCOC and go for a drag....

As mentioned earlier yesterday.....listen to music lah for 15 minutes....it will do you wonders... hehehehe...

I wonder now whether hifi is a healthy hobby or not cheers

by 123_rocketman Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:31 am

I hope this snake oil has a higher flash point than motor oil. Laughing

by **kakibook** Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:34 am

sflam wrote:
kakibook wrote:

No matter how much $$ spend on upgrade, my wife says its noise. either I marry a wrong wife or I put in the wrong cd.
aisay kakibook,
according to yr profile u r a woman. so how can yr "wife says its noise"?
Unless, of course, in this modern world, u r a les....

Lam, my wife and I runs books and hifi business for hobby. Recently she runs jewellery diy and she likes to ask me if the diy jewellery look nice.

Of course I would tell her the same way she told me on the hifi. Each time I say that I would have to fork out a Ipad, or Iphone. In return, my hifi gears get to add its staff, like scalar magnetic field quantum resonance.

btw, my advise to u, pls keep those 'unless' to yourself.

by **Hi-Fi 4 Sale** Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:55 am

elhefe wrote:WongKN, MF,

It was Friday night, no work tomorrow....and the best thing you guys did was this debate?????

Maybe you should revive HCOC and go for a drag....

As mentioned earlier yesterday.....listen to music lah for 15 minutes....it will do you wonders... hehehehe...

I wonder now whether hifi is a healthy hobby or not

Elhefe,
Lol...stay healthy, stay hi-fi!

Dudes,

It's getting hot out here...time to switch on the air-con.

The forum is meant to be used to share knowledge, not asserting 100% of your beliefs. If you want to say what you sincerely believe in and are willing to demonstrate the results, then fine. OTOH, if you can't back it up, either factually or empirically, it's best to take a more neutral stand.

Indeed, there are varying degrees of interest in this hobby, at one extreme bordering to the point of being religion. My suggestion would be to cool off, take a step back and enjoy this hobby for what it's worth to you and not impose too much on others.

*******

BTW, real question, just out of curiosity...has anyone figured out where you can obtain real snake oil?

by sflam Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:18 pm

kakibook wrote:
btw, my advise to u, pls keep those 'unless' to yourself.

ok, ok. my lips are sealed and i will just enjoy listening to the music.... Smile

hifi4sale wrote:
BTW, real question, just out of curiosity...has anyone figured out where you can obtain real snake oil?

don't know about real snake oil, but i hv seen snake wine from vietnam and china.

by carz Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:53 pm

"MugenFoo write: Just remember that a Helmholtz resonator (HR) is tuned to work at ONE particular freq (and its harmonic overtures) only.
A speaker box could be taken as a sonic reinforcement chamber, that works across a range of freqs. But as a HR? , is SURE IS NOT."

I support WongKN's contention that a speaker is almost like a Helmholtz Resonator. Try to imagine a Bass Reflex speaker, then remove the drivers and plug the speaker holes, and you have a HR.

As to the HR being tuning to a particular frequency, the bass reflex port of a speaker is actually tuned to a particular frequency (or a rather narrow band at bass freq)

As to the speaker being designed to "works across a range of freqs"; that is the function of the drivers being driven electrically. Left on its own (undriven), the drivers will only resonate like any other passive objects in the room

by mugenfoo Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:08 pm

carz wrote:
I support WongKN's contention that a speaker is almost like a Helmholtz Resonator. Try to imagine a Bass Reflex speaker, then remove the drivers and plug the speaker holes, and you have a HR.

Perhaps if you could provide additional references or sources to, it would be a breath of fresh air here. Otherwise its just an opinion agreeing with another opinion. Your choice, of course. Incidentally, if you did exactly what you described above, you would have created a HR cavity chamber, which is what air-cond ducting installers put in place of air cond venting conduits to reduce the noise of gushing air while carrying the cooled air to its outlets. But the dimensions of the cavity resonant chamber would need to be precisely chosen based on the volume & speed of air cond air carried thru.

If anything, a loudspeaker is the very anti-thesis of a HR, as a speaker is designed to output a linear spectrum of sound (within the audible spectrum), where-as a HR is designed to SPECIFICALLY Address ONE particular Freq only (whether its to enhance or absorb that specific freq). HR's may be used as part of a Loudspeaker's design as one of the many ways to LINEARISE the speaker's output and is commonly implemented for Bass output augmentation as you mentioned. it specifically being the Bass reflex port.

carz wrote:
As to the HR being tuning to a particular frequency, the bass reflex port of a speaker is actually tuned to a particular frequency (or a rather narrow band at bass freq)

And there's the million dollar revelation. Again, bass reflex ports are always TUNED to ONE PARTICULAR FREQ.

Here are some graphs of speaker plots subjected to thorough analysis.
You can see the Curve of the Port tuning, which is always causes a low frequency bump that peaks at one freq point. The sharpness of the curve is known as the "Q" factor (in electrical engineering terminology).
PSB Image B6 loudspeaker:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-image-b6-loudspeaker-measurements
The "$$$ Expensive $$$" Super Snake Oils of the "audiophile" industry - Page 4 610PSBfig3

The "$$$ Expensive $$$" Super Snake Oils of the "audiophile" industry - Page 4 610PSBfig3

"The saddle centered at 40Hz in the impedance-magnitude traces suggests
that this is the tuning frequency of the rear-facing port, and, indeed,
the minimum-motion frequency in the woofer's nearfield output (fig.3,
blue trace) lies at 40Hz."

There's your Helmholtz right there, at the BASS Reflex PORT & the BASS Reflex Port only. Not the speaker cabinet, not the woofer cone, (and not the tweeter as well). Its the red-line, in case anyone is wondering, and with a rather low design "Q" i might add.

Another example:
Wilson Audio Sophia-III Loudspeaker:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-sophia-series-3-loudspeaker-measurements

The "$$$ Expensive $$$" Super Snake Oils of the "audiophile" industry - Page 4 211Wilfig05

The "$$$ Expensive $$$" Super Snake Oils of the "audiophile" industry - Page 4 211Wilfig05

"Fig.5 Wilson Sophia Series 3, anechoic response on tweeter axis at 50",
averaged across 30° horizontal window and corrected for microphone
response, with complex sum of nearfield midrange, woofer, and port
responses plotted below 300Hz (black), and nearfield responses of
midrange unit (green), woofer (red), and lower port (blue)."

There's the Helmholtz again (which is the blue line, on the Wilson graph), which is just the PORT pipe's tuning, at 25Hz.

If anyone can show any alternate graph of any Helmholtz situation with a line on the graph that covers an entire loudspeaker's spectrum, then that could be the BEST objective counter-argument here...

and i Seriously doubt if you took the PSB speaker, blanked off the driver holes, and tried to just use it as a 40Hz HR absorber in the listening room, it would prove to be rather ineffective.
Same goes for the Wilson Sophia (if anyone is mad enough to butcher up such lovely & expensive speakers) and use them as a 25Hz bass absorber, they's be sorely dissapointed (to say the least).

carz wrote:
As to the speaker being designed to "works across a range of freqs"; that is the function of the drivers being driven electrically. Left on its own (undriven), the drivers will only resonate like any other passive objects in the room

And what about Infinite baffle (aka sealed box) speakers like LS3/5a and huge monstrous Magico's ? Where is the "Helmholtz" anywhere in those speakers ? Would it be the entire speaker cabinet? If that was the case, the speaker's sonic output would have been extremely non-linear with a particular peak and accentuation at ONE particular frequency already. Thankfully, neither the LS3/5a nor the Magico measures or sounds remotely close to such a peculiar situation.

Which brings back to the point, that a loudspeaker construction in its entirety and wholesome functionality is definitely NOT a HR. Plain and simple.

On a side note, if anyone is eager enough to really understand what is a HR, or even keen enough to construct their own HR for acoustic control or absorption, there is a whole chapter dedicated in this book titled Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers, co-written by the founder of RPG Diffusor Systems Inc, and an acoustics Professor from the Univ of Salford, UK. at Chapter 6: Resonant Absorbers, Section 6.3.1: Helmholtz Resonator.

by dixchen Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:45 pm

sflam wrote:
kakibook wrote:
btw, my advise to u, pls keep those 'unless' to yourself.

ok, ok. my lips are sealed and i will just enjoy listening to the music....

hifi4sale wrote:
BTW, real question, just out of curiosity...has anyone figured out where you can obtain real snake oil?

don't know about real snake oil, but i hv seen snake wine from vietnam and china.

If one can find an obese snake perhaps some oil could be squeezed out of it, for use in turntable spindle bearings that is Laughing

Never heard of it! Mad

by cmboy Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:26 pm

Seriously, I'd like to get my hands on some turbine oil, anyone knows where to get some?

by carz Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:23 am

Mugen,

I hope you did not misinterprete my support of WongKN's contention as siding one for the other. I am siding the fact rather than the person.

mugenfoo wrote:If anything, a loudspeaker is the very anti-thesis of a HR, as a speaker is designed to output a linear spectrum of sound (within the audible spectrum), where-as a HR is designed to SPECIFICALLY Address ONE particular Freq only (whether its to enhance or absorb that specific freq). HR's may be used as part of a Loudspeaker's design as one of the many ways to LINEARISE the speaker's output and is commonly implemented for Bass output augmentation as you mentioned. it specifically being the Bass reflex port.

I think you got confused with a "ported speaker" in these 2 states:-
1) a speaker when driven with an amplifier
2) a speaker passively standing there doing nothing

mugenfoo wrote:Incidentally, if you did exactly what you described above, you would have created a HR cavity chamber,

Exactly, and that was what i was saying. An unpowered ported speaker (bass reflex for instance) INADVERTENTLY act like a HR; in particular, the bass portion of the speaker. I mentioned the bass portion of the speaker because usually the midrange and tweeter are separated from the part where the bass port is.

However in its mode as a HR (when undriven), the tuned frequency would most likely not be the same as the bass port frequency of the speaker for which it was designed, when driven.

mugenfoo wrote:If anyone can show any alternate graph of any Helmholtz situation with a line on the graph that covers an entire loudspeaker's spectrum, then that could be the BEST objective counter-argument here...

Nobody said it would, you did ! As a speaker (driven by an amplifier) it would cover the spectrum it was designed for, but as a Helmholtz (passive, undriven), it would not.

mugenfoo wrote:and i Seriously doubt if you took the PSB speaker, blanked off the driver holes, and tried to just use it as a 40Hz HR absorber in the listening room, it would prove to be rather ineffective.
Same goes for the Wilson Sophia (if anyone is mad enough to butcher up such lovely & expensive speakers) and use them as a 25Hz bass absorber, they's be sorely dissapointed (to say the least).

You are right, it will not work that way. I never did say that it will function as a Helmholtz at the exact frequency the speaker bass port was tuned. However, function as a Helmholtz it will.

mugenfoo wrote:And what about Infinite baffle (aka sealed box) speakers like LS3/5a and huge monstrous Magico's ? Where is the "Helmholtz" anywhere in those speakers ? Would it be the entire speaker cabinet? If that was the case, the speaker's sonic output would have been extremely non-linear with a particular peak and accentuation at ONE particular frequency already..... Which brings back to the point, that a loudspeaker construction in its entirety and wholesome functionality is definitely NOT a HR. Plain and simple.

With Infinite baffle, No Helmholtz Resonator here ! I never said it did! I specifically stated a ported speaker like a Bass Reflex speaker; i never mentioned a sealed box speaker.

The point here is:-
1) A ported speaker in its passive mode (undriven) acts like a Helmholtz Resonator, albeit an imperfect one
2) It does not act as a perfect Helmholtz Resonator

by zeebee Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:35 am

Phew!!! and while you were at it, I was enjoying...

The "$$$ Expensive $$$" Super Snake Oils of the "audiophile" industry - Page 4 Dsc01610

No snake oil, no 9N silver intercomnects, no cones, but a lot of accoustic treatment..

Just enjoying the music with my beloved wife Very Happy

.

KN, MF.. Both of you are passionate and very intelligent, and have been the life of this hf4s party .. and been great help to guys like me who knows duhh about this hobby, hope you'd both cool off..

Sweet dreams Sleep

by mugenfoo Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:14 am

Spoiler:

OK, lets stick to facts:

1) A speaker when powered, is a speaker as how it works .. it makes sound et etc.

2) A speaker when just sitting still, is also NOT a HR, whether it be ported or not. And for the reasons previously shown. But it can colour the sound by means of its drivers vibrating sympathetically and causing sonic reflections to varying degrees, and also absorbing certain freqs as well (more on this later...) .

It is ONLY a HR, if and when the mechanically free-moving cones are hypothetically blanked off and if it has a port opening. There is even an established formula for such cavity devices. But then when its a plain box of a certain volume with an opening, it is not even remotely similar to being a loudspeaker. Also on the same point that a loudspeaker's cabinet construction is not really designed to be a Helmholtz in the first place.

So again, back to point 2) a speaker box with its freely moving cones/drivers... doesn't act as a HR in any of its passive states. Imagine a box with non rigid walls... what would this be then?

If anything that a loudspeaker might approximate, it would be better described as a "membrane resonator" with somewhat-broader band absorption properties ! The cones vibrate sympathetically, and its internal cabinet construction PLUS its damping and wadding material would dissipate the re-radiated sound waves into various mechanical motions and subsequently heat. The loudspeaker's internal volume could be modeled as a restoring-spring while the cones vibrate due to external airborne excitation. This is explained in greater detail in the aforementioned book at section 6.2.7 which clearly equates a passive loudspeaker as being a membrane resonant absorber (as opposed to HR's which are of rigid construction!). It even goes on to describe how the absorption properties of a passive loudspeaker could be tuned by varying the resistive & capacitive loads between its terminals. (aka changing the Q of this loudspeaker-absorber).

A HR, on the other hand is constructed via a totally rigid enclosure of a tuned cavity (depth), and evenly spaced openings usually via perforated holes in its surface on incidence to the incoming sonic wave.

Some Examples of real life HRs are bricks along the highway barrier walls with slotted designs, and perforated wall panels in studio and vocal booths. Rigidity is key here.

Carz, if you have a healthy quest for knowledge and facts, this book is highly recommended. It costs much less than most hifi tweaks and accesories, and gives a super insightful understanding of the hows and whys of acoustics. At least it is appreciative that you can carry on an objective debate without any chest-thumping or motherhood statements.

by sflam Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:52 am

looks like my innocent statement abt unused speakers in a room colouring the sound has sparked off much hot, hot, hot debate.

after googling around, i hv to agree with mugenfoo. an unconnected (bass reflex) speaker is not a helmholtz resonator - imperfect or otherwise - and does not act like one.

by JediSavant Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:30 am

Debates, when carried out properly, with facts and well-constructed arguments to support them, form the basis of education and sharing.

It thoroughly makes no sense to simply follow the pronouncements of various sifus and snake doctors if they rely simply on personal anecdotes and opinions.

Dirty Harry, in one particular film of the movie series, once said... "Opinions are like a$%holes... Everybody's got one..."

It makes sense then, to stick to facts and established and verified research, whether in science or philosophy.

by sanguine Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:31 am

WongKN wrote: I regret telling u abt checking textbooks back in thr days of the hcoc. Thr is s word that comes to mind but i ain't saying. Hahaha !

Hope "anal retentive" wasnt what you had in mind!

This is what has been quoted on HR. There are many others but this should suffice.

"The resonators that Helmholtz described performed an incredible feat. When sound would hit the (a) opening, the vibrations would excite the volume of air in the body of the resonator. However, because of its peculiar design, the resonator would only transfer and amplify a single tone to the (b) opening, but only if that tone was present in the sound being made. The volume of the body determined which tone was transferred.

"Helmholtz would place the (b) opening in his ear and use it to pick out individual musical tones when many were present. For instance, if a three-noted chord was played, and a resonator was present that was tuned to one of those notes, only that note would be audible to Helmholtz. However, if a resonator were present that was tuned for a note that was not being played, nothing would be heard. Even if the note the resonator was tuned for were extremely quiet in comparison to the rest, the resonator would amplify the correct note, allowing Helmholtz to hear even the faintest of sounds.

"Helmholtz had many resonators of different sizes and shapes. In fact, any rigid structure containing a volume of air connected to the outside via a small opening (hole, port, or neck) that amplifies a particular frequency can be considered a Helmholtz resonator. ]

A ported loudspeaker qualifies as a rigid structure, it has a volume of air in it and is connected to the outside via a port. Should it not then qualify as a HR?

One weakness if we are to go by the above description would be, the rigidness of the cone. Is it rigid enough for the encapsulated air to be excited? I think it is.

by mugenfoo Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:58 am

sanguine wrote:
A ported loudspeaker qualifies as a rigid structure, it has a volume of air in it and is connected to the outside via a port. Should it not then qualify as a HR?

One weakness if we are to go by the above description would be, the rigidness of the cone. Is it rigid enough for the encapsulated air to be excited? I think it is.

A complete loudspeaker assembly can be taken to be a rigid structure BUT you forgot one BIG difference,which is that the cones are freely moveable. Only if you were to BLANK-OFF the Drivers (ie, remove the woofers & tweeters and Fasten a big plate to close them off the openings, then only it becomes a Cavity HR. Such a plain blank-box is hardly a loudspeaker. It could be a container of sorts as well, but without ANY drivers, a loudspeaker is certainly isn't.

Again, the key to a proper HR is all-round RIGIDITY, and then some engineered port openings for the internal volume to to act as the resonant cavity.

If there are other elements of elasticity anywhere within the walls of an enclosure (such as speaker cones), then it would be a MEMBRANE Resonator instead.

sflam wrote:
after googling around, i hv to agree with mugenfoo. an unconnected (bass reflex) speaker is not a helmholtz resonator - imperfect or otherwise - and does not act like one.

Thank you! At least you have some good initiative to go do some simple research to FIND-OUT-MORE. Would be even better if u can also share your sources for all to investigate further if they are keen.