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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

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Post by WongKN on Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:54 pm

tycham wrote:...but more also because Swee were smiling at me so sweetly when I walk into his shop.

So, all it takes is for a guy to smile at you.... Shocked
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Post by 123_rocketman on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:21 pm

mugenfoo wrote:

However, the open-frame locally made metal frames actually vibrate sympathetically at multiple resonant points from the cabinet's energy and hence it acts to store the mechanical energy, and then re-release it back to both the floor and the speaker cabinet.


Hmmmm, how does the metal open frame store energy? scratch I thought spring in compression/tension stores energy? Care to elaborate?

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Post by tycham on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:21 pm

WongKN wrote:
tycham wrote:...but more also because Swee were smiling at me so sweetly when I walk into his shop.

So, all it takes is for a guy to smile at you.... Shocked

Adoi! You know hokkien or not. Maybe I should be more crude and said chio bu instead!~ Twisted Evil

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Post by Mikapoh on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:25 pm

I am starting to look as clone skyline diffusors as an alternative to absorption panels, strategically placed around the room boundary. I've taken the pain to remove 3 absorption panels at my listening chair and to replace them by diffusors. Now, leaving the nasty mark (glue mark). Wondering whether to use thinner to clean it or just use the new diffusors to cover it and do nothing.

First reflection points of the side wall will be treated as well. Vertical early reflection point is not so critical as I've carpets to tame them.

Very agreed that our room acoustic plays a very major part in achieving a good balance sound. Much more applicable if our system is inside a dedicated room. I am no expert but just started to pick up the pieces and learn as time goes by.








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Post by tycham on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:31 pm

Cikgu Wong:

When are you free to give us lessons on MSB and LSB as indicated here?
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Post by WongKN on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:48 pm

Eh ? I tot nobody interested in it ? Not lessons lar, yet another grandfather story is more like it.....
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Post by mugenfoo on Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:05 pm

123_rocketman wrote:

Hmmmm, how does the metal open frame store energy? scratch I thought spring in compression/tension stores energy? Care to elaborate?

Same thing.

Only that a Spring operates at much lower frequencies that our eyes can easily see. At the audible KHz band, the ringing stands also flexes just like a spring and do exactly the same thing.
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Post by mugenfoo on Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:07 pm

tycham wrote:
mugenfoo wrote:

Those few who are willing to actually break out of this paradigm shift and start looking into the realm of environmental treatment ...

I am still wondering how my mason straightened the adjacent room side of the wall after being instructed to do the listening room walls slightly off parallel. Now, if the Home Minister would allow me to hang some used wok on the wall, sure would get rid of flutter echo with all these anti focusing surfaces!

Flutter echo is one of the MOST EASIEST to fix. Those locally made rigid styrofoam RPG Skyline copycats will do just fine. Or IKEA pillows tacked to the wall also will work.

Bass interference, room modal ringing are the WORST to fix.
Bass boom, bass suckout... these are the absolute worst Gremlins in any listenin room.
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Post by STC on Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:32 pm

Sometime back I added sand to Sam's stand, I thought it improved the sound until Joki pointed out sand wasn't suitable to damp the resonance. Thereafter, it was experimentation with sand, rubber and other materials, but then I just concluded it made no difference or at least my ears weren't good enough.

Finally, instead of draining the cabinet vibration effectively to improve the sound, I induced additional vibration to the cabinet to see if colours the sound. I used small motor from a toy and placed it on the cabinet while it is running and compared the sound to see if it made any difference to the sound. It appears at least to my ears that the motor vibration did not cloud or add any coloration to the sound. BTW, the motor vibration is much stronger and can be felt easily compared to the hollow stand resonance.

I am just sharing my observation. It is doable by all of us.
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Post by VS126 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:57 pm

STC wrote:Sometime back I added sand to Sam's stand, I thought it improved the sound until Joki pointed out sand wasn't suitable to damp the resonance. .

You thought it improved the sound until someone told you it does not?
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Post by mugenfoo on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:39 pm

VS126 wrote:
STC wrote:Sometime back I added sand to Sam's stand, I thought it improved the sound until Joki pointed out sand wasn't suitable to damp the resonance. .

You thought it improved the sound until someone told you it does not?

New modus Operandi: everything is doable by us, until someone tells us otherwise!

lol!
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Post by STC on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:12 pm

You thought it improved sound.....

That wasn't my intention but it can certainly be interpreted so if you choose to miss the wood for trees. A well respected member created the doubts of what I perceived may just be a mere hallucination as most of us go through in search of perfect sound. I just wanted to be sure it wasn't psychosis. I was sharing what I observed which may contribute to better understandings of speaker stands. There could be flaws in my experiment but it is repeatable anywhere including on your speakers. Would appreciate if importance given to that particular aspect. Thanks.
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Post by mugenfoo on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:55 pm

STC, i think VS126's point is just that , you should experiment for yourself, and if you hear the differences, thats good. Don't be so much influenced by what others may tell you if this should or should not work.
This includes all my own opinions and ideas as well.

Often times, a method might work in certain circumstances, but is completely non-effective under different circumstances.

Forest & Trees: they are all part of the whole eco-system.
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Post by Mahler 9 on Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:18 pm

Somehow moderneagle like to share with us how "friend comments" on his setup. I just curious if without friend comments can really realised the vocal possition is a bit low? Every vocal focus also low or just some only...

Soundstage is just an illustion in brain. Each person detect its differently. Normally, a gang, say gang A of audiophile who always stick together will share same illusion in soundstage. Then gang B will detect different soundstage from gang A. The correct height for gang A may just sound diffused to gang B and etc.

That's say in this hobby, owner should get sound that he like but not to make the sound that other like and tell you it is right.

Just anyhow type only.

Cheers~

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Post by moderneagle on Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Yes Mahler sir, guilty of being a noob in Hifi only 2 months since my first component purchase. So am here to learn from the old hands. I must admit it's a steep learning curve especially on topics such as positional fondling, component matching, speaker stands and related rigging and the likes. All in the pursuit of optimising my setup which i suspect can be further improved with some simple yet learn-ed 'moves' like what i observed during the Zeebee session last weekend. And to be honest I don't yet know what constitutes a good height so have to get opinions from the experienced ones. Unless like you say height is an illusion, then this is a futile exercise.

Yours, not optimised or not, moderneagle

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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:16 am

modernbirdie, u ever heard of the expression:
"Too many cooks spoil the broth" ? Wink

Besides, as with everything, you gotta start off from bogey, par, birdie, eagle, albatross, condor ....

But do beware, as there are alot of bogeys out there claiming to be eagles or even condors. I could be one of them as well! For this, you'll just have to learn and judge for yourself.
study
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Post by moderneagle on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:15 pm

So can anyone tell me what is the right height they get with their optimized system? Singer standing up? sitting down? standing on a 3 foot stage?
Before I moved to the current position, I quite distinctly heard the lead vocal in the region of 6 foot to 7 foot height where the mouth is supposed to be. And this is with various tracks with different singers. Currently, it is between 4 - 5 feet. Changes made were:

1. Speakers backed by hard wall (higher) vs backed by sliding glass door with thin curtain (lower)

2. Placement of electronics on generic 8 foot long TV rack (higher) with hardly any isolation - well other than the spongy isonodes which I've stopped using, vs a dedicated acrylic rack (lower)

3. Firing width wise (higher) vs length wise (lower) although the speakers spacing is about the same (7 feet - 8 feet apart) as well as listening position (11 - 12 feet away)

The living hall is rectangular in shape btw. Have plonked the speakers down to the Sam stand with little goblets of Bluetac which I've not changed for either position. Ceiling height is the same with both positions.

Or is height not even important as long as the music is sweet?

Yours, under peer pressure, moderneagle

p/s earth calling mugen, have heard reports your system is great! hope to get a chance to see what you have done with your setup especially the tweaks.

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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:02 pm

too many cooks here.... too many cooks...
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Post by VS126 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:55 pm

[quote="moderneagle"]So can anyone tell me what is the right height they get with their optimized system? Singer standing up? sitting down? standing on a 3 foot stage?
Before I moved to the current position, I quite distinctly heard the lead vocal in the region of 6 foot to 7 foot height where the mouth is supposed to be. And this is with various tracks with different singers. Currently, it is between 4 - 5 feet.

quote]

Maybe now you are listening to midgets singing. CD's featuring all midgets. In this case, yr system is optimised.
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Post by carz on Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:28 pm

>>>p/s earth calling mugen, have heard reports your system is great! hope to get a chance to see what you have done with your setup especially the tweaks..

Mugen, may i know what speakers you are using ....been wanting to know. Amps have to be Krells since from infering from your writings ....but i still have no inkling what speakers u are using. Please lah, tell me lah Smile

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Post by car o scope on Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:45 pm

carz wrote:>>>p/s earth calling mugen, have heard reports your system is great! hope to get a chance to see what you have done with your setup especially the tweaks..

Mugen, may i know what speakers you are using ....been wanting to know. Amps have to be Krells since from infering from your writings ....but i still have no inkling what speakers u are using. Please lah, tell me lah Smile
Must be Sonic Gear 2.1!! Razz
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Post by bimmerman on Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:04 pm

That's old news, I heard Mugen has upgraded his speakers already. He's now on Sonic Gear 7.1
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Post by carz on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:12 pm

aah ! But i thot he mention Edifier a lot, so he upgraded to Sonic Gear now eh Razz

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Post by mugenfoo on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:18 pm

pirat

OK since u guys so curious, i have a pair of Mission M31 thats made in MY (before they moved production to China).


Last edited by mugenfoo on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Mahler 9 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:36 pm

Oh moderneagle you just into this 2 months..I see

Try to get familiar with your current setup and understand your room acoustic property by trying different speakers position and sit position before go into accessories tweak. A very small toe-in or distance adjustment may give huge effect in some room.

You really need to listen it and feel yourself by listen the album thru various setups to find what is correct height you like but not asking other. Try to differential your feeling on height from owner feeling. Do not worry too much what you feel is differ from owner...there is no absolute answer because all depend on how you feel.

Some using music as tool, hifi is target. Some use hifi as tool, music is target...Also some just like to mod..some just like to talk...some just like to tweak, some just like to change...etc

Slowly develop preferences for yourself but not for other ears...Care too much on other ears made yourself confuse and suffer..

If you able to connected to music whenever you listen to your setup, height is really not important..but by then, why you into this hobby? So what is the purpose?

Just anyhow talk only.

Cheers~

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Post by moderneagle on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:55 am

Hey Mahler you're freaking me out man. Are you using some sort of artificial intelligence based synthesised text from projected thought software engine from the future?? Nevermind.
I get exactly what you mean and it's both logical and practical. But let me mess around a bit, gotta satisfy the cat in me. Just rather curious what others have done to their systems and how optimised their 'code' is if you get my drift. Then i can cut down on time wiping, cuss inducing, matrimony wrecking blind trial and error approaches. Ya time to market is of the essence here, I don't know how long I'm gonna stay active before my focus shifts back to playing I instead of listening to muzak. Thanks for sharing, I learn something new here every other day.
btw, the reason I get into this hobby is the same like everyone else here, to get hot chicks off my back.

Yours, yes I find me irritating too, moderneagle

P/s it's for the enjoy of music. Artistic licensed.


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Post by jtan on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:13 am

ROTFL! In this hobby is wisdom

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Post by Mikapoh on Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:18 am

Mahler 9 wrote:Oh moderneagle you just into this 2 months..I see

Try to get familiar with your current setup and understand your room acoustic property by trying different speakers position and sit position before go into accessories tweak. A very small toe-in or distance adjustment may give huge effect in some room.

You really need to listen it and feel yourself by listen the album thru various setups to find what is correct height you like but not asking other. Try to differential your feeling on height from owner feeling. Do not worry too much what you feel is differ from owner...there is no absolute answer because all depend on how you feel.

Some using music as tool, hifi is target. Some use hifi as tool, music is target...Also some just like to mod..some just like to talk...some just like to tweak, some just like to change...etc

Slowly develop preferences for yourself but not for other ears...Care too much on other ears made yourself confuse and suffer..

If you able to connected to music whenever you listen to your setup, height is really not important..but by then, why you into this hobby? So what is the purpose?

Just anyhow talk only.

Cheers~


Very well said Mahler 9.

I tend to agree that if we can stay tune or have some kind of connections to the music we listen, the height of the singer isn't really a big issue. I've a friend who prefers the singer's voice below the tweeter, less than 2 feet!

But if you still wish the singer to sing with a bit of height like standing, maybe you can try lowering the back spike of the speaker and make it lean a little backward. This may result the image being projected higher. Just my 2cents thought. Sitting on Sam's speakers stand parallel, the singer image is slightly above my C7s in my room configuration.


Cheers.
Listen to emotion and expression...





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Post by moderneagle on Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:48 am

Hey I didn't think of that. Thanks Mika! Will give it a try - another offshoot idea is to replace the front 10 cents coins with 20 or 50 cents coins to move up the value chain so to speak. Great! Will try that out.

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Post by Mahler 9 on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:32 am

just a gentle reminder bluetak dry after time and suck tightly on surface. becareful when u remove spkr from stand to avoid wood vinyl peel off. Also insert coil below spike without spkr sit on stand to avoid fall. Sometime coin
can give brighter sound some call it bite.

Have fun

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Post by WongKN on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:35 am

Eagle,

Your stands do not have adjustable spikes at the feet ? The standard method of adjusting tilt (technically, this is what you are adjusting for now) is to adjust the spikes, not by putting coins and other stuff.
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Post by moderneagle on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:52 am

Ok points taken but will experiment some. Yes the sam stands do have adjustable spikes but I put some coins underneath to prevent scratching the floor surface.
Yeah want to change out the bluetak to something else to prevent the veneer peeling off mahler.

Thanks.

Yours, will report soon, moderneagle

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Post by WongKN on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:04 pm

Eagle,

If the spikes are adjustable, adjust the spikes, NOT put thicker or thinner coins. If you can, replace those coins with proper metal discs. These are flat metal discs often with a dimple drilled in the middle for the spikes to sit on. They should be available from Amcorp mall. The proper way of adjusting via the spikes do not require you to remove the speaker from the stand. It also offers very fine adjustment resolutions. Use a spirit leveller to double check that both speakers are tilting at the same degree backwards.

Everytime I talk to you, I am reminded of the ANGRY BIRD game on my iphone4. Laughing
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Post by htkaki on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:09 pm

WongKN wrote:Eagle,

If the spikes are adjustable, adjust the spikes, NOT put thicker or thinner coins. If you can, replace those coins with proper metal discs. These are flat metal discs often with a dimple drilled in the middle for the spikes to sit on. They should be available from Amcorp mall. The proper way of adjusting via the spikes do not require you to remove the speaker from the stand. It also offers very fine adjustment resolutions. Use a spirit leveller to double check that both speakers are tilting at the same degree backwards.

Everytime I talk to you, I am reminded of the ANGRY BIRD game on my iphone4. Laughing
Shocked Wong Suk also plays this game
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Post by khlim_77 on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:11 pm

wah
story haven finish ah , but far away from Harbeth liow leh
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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

Post by WongKN on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:18 pm

htkaki wrote:
WongKN wrote:Eagle,
Everytime I talk to you, I am reminded of the ANGRY BIRD game on my iphone4. Laughing
Shocked Wong Suk also plays this game

I have already finished all the levels and is frustrated there are no more left to play. So I will occasionally replay some of the levels. In almost all the levels, I have completed without using the mighty eagle. I am now aiming for 4 stars whenever I replay a level.

I understand there are a lot more levels if I jail-break and get those unofficial levels but I do not favour jail-breaking at the moment. Maybe later.

Now we are REALLY far away from the original topic !!! Laughing
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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

Post by tycham on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:21 pm

WongKN wrote:

I have already finished all the levels and is frustrated there are no more left to play. So I will occasionally replay some of the levels. In almost all the levels, I have completed without using the mighty eagle. I am now aiming for 4 stars whenever I replay a level.

I understand there are a lot more levels if I jail-break and get those unofficial levels but I do not favour jail-breaking at the moment. Maybe later.

Now we are REALLY far away from the original topic !!! Laughing

How about a game of golf to hit some birdies?
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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

Post by moderneagle on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:35 pm

Eh birdie means penis right?

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Post by tycham on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:43 pm

moderneagle wrote:Eh birdie means penis right?

Birdie means to hole out one stroke under regulation.
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Harbeth speakers - discussion thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Harbeth speakers - discussion thread

Post by mugenfoo on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:53 pm

WongKN wrote:
htkaki wrote:
WongKN wrote:Eagle,
Everytime I talk to you, I am reminded of the ANGRY BIRD game on my iphone4. Laughing
Shocked Wong Suk also plays this game

I have already finished all the levels and is frustrated there are no more left to play. So I will occasionally replay some of the levels. In almost all the levels, I have completed without using the mighty eagle. I am now aiming for 4 stars whenever I replay a level.

I understand there are a lot more levels if I jail-break and get those unofficial levels but I do not favour jail-breaking at the moment. Maybe later.

Now we are REALLY far away from the original topic !!! Laughing
\


Then u should go get the Angry Birds Seasons!
Got Xmas theme, Halloween theme Theme, Valentine's Day theme & St. Patrick's day theme all in one package.

BTW, Jailbreaking in itself is fine and not illegal. But after Jailbreaking, it permits you to install cracked apps. Then this is illegal.

But there are plenty more reasons to jailbreak and do perfectly legit stuff like installing free & paid apps that are outside of the Apple AppStore eco-system, 3rd party customizations and tweaks.

The whole spirit of Jailbreaking should not be to get illegal apps but to set-free your device from Apple's Universe and how they would dictate your usage of the device.
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Post by mugenfoo on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:55 pm

tycham wrote:
moderneagle wrote:Eh birdie means penis right?

Birdie means to hole out one stroke under regulation.

modernbird is always thinking dirty... dunno whats gotten into him... not enough quality hifi time, must be. Razz
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Post by WongKN on Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:06 pm

Hmmm.... originally I thought tycham was suggesting for me to take up golf. REAL golf. But this eagle fella really planted some serious doubts in my mind.... Very Happy

MF, yeah I have been considering getting the Angry Bird Sessions. Probably will do it soon.
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Post by Mikapoh on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:46 pm

Guys, talking about coins under the spike. I am facing with the different situation. I put 20 cents coil between the speaker and the stand. Is this also have detrimental effect on the sound? I have to do this because my speakers 4 corners cabinet cannot rest tightly on it. I suspect the triangle shape rubber on 4 corners of the stand are not same height. Or even worse the bottom surface of my speakers are not flat enuf??







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Post by Mikapoh on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:55 pm

khlim_77 wrote:wah
story haven finish ah , but far away from Harbeth liow leh

Thread owner already warned not to be out of topic.....Haha.

This thread just getting to be more active and more informative too apart from early boiling moment.




Cheers.

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Post by ryder on Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:02 pm

Mikapoh wrote: I suspect the triangle shape rubber on 4 corners of the stand are not same height. Or even worse the bottom surface of my speakers are not flat enuf??

Most likely it is due to the poor construction of the speaker stands that caused the failure of the speaker to sit firmly on the stands. Maybe one corner of the stands is not level. Putting coins between the triangular rubber pad of the stands and the speakers is not recommended. One cheap fix is to use a small blob of blu-tack on the triangular rubber pads at the corners but use a small piece of paper to separate the blu-tack from the bottom of the speaker cabinet.

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Post by Mikapoh on Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:14 pm

Thanks ryder.

I will have them fixed as soon as possible. So I guess coins are bad to hifi sound.





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Post by adrian4454 on Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:11 pm

Although I never use a Harbeth speaker before, in my experiment: Even a small amount of this sticky stuff will alter the sound. I use the Faber Castell tack it puddy.

I also face the problem of uneven speaker stand base for the speaker to sit on. I use washer instead of coin. My solution is: I hammer the Son of-biXXh washer to submission until it level enough for my speaker to sit evenly on the base of the stand.

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Post by moderneagle on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:16 pm


Hi all. I just had the intense pleasure of auditioning a system two nights ago. It was a TT based system with an Odyssey Strato/Stratus(?) amp with a Nagra tube preamp and a pair of Audio Physic Media 2 speakers in a smallish 10ft by 13ft room. Speakers were no more than 8 feet from the listening position. Man, the soundstage and dynamism. Unbelievable. First time ever listening to such a scary good sound with TT. Must say, sadly, my point of reference has been shifted irreparably forever. 

Ok back to my Harbeths and the real world. I've lowered the back spikes of the stands by about 2 mm, the soundstage didn't move up also or at least not perceivable by my ears. Doesn't matter at least the PRAT is not too shabby. I think I'll just sit back and listen to music after all. Just bought me some nice CDs. Jennifer Warnes The Well plays thru the Harbeths tonight. Dang, it better play well, I payed 150 squids used fer it. 

Yours, Bellafonte sings the Blues too, moderneagle

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Post by mugenfoo on Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:46 am

moderneagle wrote:
Hi all. I just had the intense pleasure of auditioning a system two
nights ago. It was a TT based system with an Odyssey Strato/Stratus(?)
amp with a Nagra tube preamp and a pair of Audio Physic Media 2 speakers
in a smallish 10ft by 13ft room.

Dude, its not Audio Physic "Media" but "Medea". This model uses the Manger tweeter. Circa early 2000s era.
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Post by htkaki on Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:36 pm

mugenfoo wrote:
moderneagle wrote:
Hi all. I just had the intense pleasure of auditioning a system two
nights ago. It was a TT based system with an Odyssey Strato/Stratus(?)
amp with a Nagra tube preamp and a pair of Audio Physic Media 2 speakers
in a smallish 10ft by 13ft room.

Dude, its not Audio Physic "Media" but "Medea". This model uses the Manger tweeter. Circa early 2000s era.
Probably, he has been playing with too many media players Razz

I wonder whether our friend has any new toys to go with his AP Cardeas. I will check with him. If have, wanna go again?
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