Lousy electrical power supply fix - Power Conditioners

You should have a voltage 'regulator'. It's just that those automatic voltage regulator might not work that well (I tried one meant for computers many years ago and it really robbed the system of life, no dynamics, music was flat and slow). The thing is you should run your equipment at its rated voltage, meaning as close to 240V as possible (assuming you bought it from an authorised dealer so it is spec'ed for our market). So something like a PowerTran is quite indeispensible unless your house supply is superbly stable at around 240V. If not, typically the voltage drops as the night gets later as more and more people switch on their air-conds, people take bath and use water heater, people cook dinner, people switch on TV and other stuff. It seems to be worse in the older houses which have only single phase supply. In my house, the supply voltage will drop to below 230V, sometimes as low as 220V. At that voltage, the hifi sounds harsh, with no bass, not details and quite tough to listen to. With the PowerTrans, I now run the system at between 235 to 245V and I get to enjoy the system every time I power it on. I find a manual unit more than enough as I set it to expect 230V from the mains and then use the fine adjustment knob to add 5V (my PowerTrans comes with this feature).

Interesting!!
I can see flickers from my Ikea study lamp.
Suddenly dimmer suddenly brighter.
Old house ma... what to do?? haih...

Yes, went to Adrian's shop (Audio Image) yesterday & hear them saying about the Promitheus Audio "Power Energizer". Saying that it give very good performance & it's sell like hot cake.

May want to give it a try to hook it from my Balanced 2KVA PowerTrans later.

Yes, went to Adrian's shop (Audio Image) yesterday & hear them saying about the Promitheus Audio "Power Energizer". Saying that it give very good performance & it's sell like hot cake.

May want to give it a try to hook it from my Balanced 2KVA PowerTrans later.

so what is the price like?

ok, if I don;t wanna use the power conditioner, except for a RC filter, what can we do for the ground loop hum?

car o scope wrote:

hughesths wrote:APC- American Power Company. Its products seem assembled in India now.

Hmmm.. I have seen these APC stuffs at IT shops too.
They have a wide range. The biggest is 1500VA.
The price is not too expensive given its features.
Any of you here used APC before?

Bought this Made In Tngsuah APC PH6T3-UK Surge Arrest 6 outlets for SGD67.41.

llsaw wrote:How much is a new Power Trans incidently? Not RM1K rite?

I was quoted RM1.8k for the 2 KVA model.

car o scope wrote:OK. Back to the topic.
I think there are not many out there which has multiple functions like AVR, UPS and Regulator all in one, right?
Audio Image's PowerTrans ada ka?

AVR + UPS is quite common to find. The PowerTrans doesn't have either.

Actually for battery power and power regeneration, people have suggested buying a true online or double conversion UPS. In this kind of UPS the connected equipment is drawing power from the internal UPS battery.

Michaelyong wrote:I'm a newbie in HIFI world. so after all the info I got here, do we need to have both Voltage Regulator & Isolation Transformer at the same times?

so we plug the voltage regulator to the wall outlet and then isolation transformer to the voltage regulator?

Actually Micromate makes an isolation transformer with built in AVR and line conditioner. The 2 KVA model is something like RM1.9k. I have tested in my system before and it does yield improvements. Note: the owner of Micromate is a friend of mine.

Adrian at Audio Image says the PowerTrans doesn't have AVR because he feels it degrades the audio quality. I did ask Micromate about this and they do agree that the AVR circuitry does introduce a bit of interference into the power (due to boost/buck). So consider using AVR only if the voltage in your area fluctuates too much.

I also asked Micromate about the balanced power configuration. They also said it would provide better noise rejection compared to normal. So in the end I'm getting Micromate to build me an isolation transformer without AVR and with balanced power.

WongKN wrote:You should have a voltage 'regulator'. It's just that those automatic voltage regulator might not work that well (I tried one meant for computers many years ago and it really robbed the system of life, no dynamics, music was flat and slow). The thing is you should run your equipment at its rated voltage, meaning as close to 240V as possible (assuming you bought it from an authorised dealer so it is spec'ed for our market). So something like a PowerTran is quite indeispensible unless your house supply is superbly stable at around 240V. If not, typically the voltage drops as the night gets later as more and more people switch on their air-conds, people take bath and use water heater, people cook dinner, people switch on TV and other stuff. It seems to be worse in the older houses which have only single phase supply. In my house, the supply voltage will drop to below 230V, sometimes as low as 220V. At that voltage, the hifi sounds harsh, with no bass, not details and quite tough to listen to. With the PowerTrans, I now run the system at between 235 to 245V and I get to enjoy the system every time I power it on. I find a manual unit more than enough as I set it to expect 230V from the mains and then use the fine adjustment knob to add 5V (my PowerTrans comes with this feature).

In terms of voltage drop, I thought it was the opposite, namely voltage goes up at night. At least in my house that's the case. Day time it's about 227-230V. At night goes up to 236-240V.

Although at night homes consume more power as you said, industry and commercial users reduce their use and they are ones drawing the huge power from the grid. With those big users powering down, voltage goes up. That's what I was told anyway.

Anyway, I wanted to ask how does the PowerTrans voltage selector work? When I was at Audio Image I asked Adrian about it but his explanation was vague. I get the impression that you should adjust the voltage selector to whatever is the incoming voltage from the wall. It's not like you can select for example 240V and the PowerTrans will keep the output to 240V (regardless of the incoming V). Can you shed some light on this?

Also Adrian told me about a PowerTrans upgrade option, with better internal cabling and aluminium feet. Extra RM500. Anybody went this way?

Tachikoma wrote:Wouldn't something like this work too?
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP5206&CATID=&keywords=UPS&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=

or this:
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MP5210&keywords=UPS&form=KEYWORD

(Granted these things aren't cheap, but its a lot less than RM10k)

From what I've read I think it uses the battery like a massive capacitor in line with the mains (so the battery is being continuously recharged while you're using the UPS), so wouldn't this sort out your power issues?

Edit: only the second one does that, and so they charge you a bit more of a premium for that but its still far less than most "power regenerators" marketed for hi-fi.

Yup, that's an example of the true online UPS I mentioned. Now the question is which of these things is the best? Online UPS vs Isolation Transformer vs etc?

I'm still undecided.

jchong wrote:
AVR + UPS is quite common to find. The PowerTrans doesn't have either.

Actually for battery power and power regeneration, people have suggested buying a true online or double conversion UPS. In this kind of UPS the connected equipment is drawing power from the internal UPS battery.

One of the main reason I am looking for a AVR + UPS is because I am afraid the inconsistency of supply by TNB will damage my equipments.
I am not sure about other areas but the area which I am staying has several blackouts these two months, all of a sudden. Quite worrying.
Apart from that, my electrician also told me that my house is actually 'not enough electricity'.

Anyhow, I am still undecided what to buy.

Car o scope,

The first thing you need to do is to notify TNB the problem you're facing, although most probably TNB won't give a shit to rectify, you know.
I had gotten my Focus 788 tweeter and tubes blown during a blackout before, the authority is always unreliable, so all I could do was to get my systems some protections without any sacrifice of system sonic performance, that came the PurePower ac regenerator with battery backup.
In the event of any blackout, the equipments which plugged to Purepower will still be in operation powered by its battery mode, allows you to continue listening or have time to switch off. It is a protection for your vacuum tubes, tweeters, projector bulb.
If the authority is irresponsible, you need to find the solution yourself.
You are not alone anyway, my area input voltage fluctuates from 200V ( during haze dry season 10pm-12pm ) and 260V (every weekend morning till noon ). Cheers.

Check out namewee's latest music video about TNB !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij022dP9dX4

Hahaha, interesting, thanks, Mugen.

PurePower?? GULP!!
It is way too much for my wallet to handle. hahahaha..

Anyway, TNB can just do what they want without informing us.
There was a day last month.
I had 4-5 interruptions in a single day.
Luckily, I did not turn on my equipments.

Namewee was very frustrated as he lost his file when the blackout occured.
He did not manage to save his file at that time.
But then, TNB just accidentally gave him a freakin' idea on a new song.

hughesths wrote:Hahaha, interesting, thanks, Mugen.

Glad to be of service.

btw, he made news again with this recent video.

in case anyone here hasn't heard of him, his previous one was the controversial "Negaraku-ku-ku-ku ......" rap song about a year or 2 ago.

hughesths wrote:If the authority is irresponsible, you need to find the solution yourself. You are not alone anyway, my area input voltage fluctuates from 200V ( during haze dry season 10pm-12pm ) and 260V (every weekend morning till noon ). Cheers.

Wow, that's a huge voltage swing.

Anyway, I heard that many audio equipment comes with switch mode power supply that can tolerate some level of V swing. Is that correct? Anybody know?

If not mistaken, most equipments would tolerate + - 10% of rated input voltage. However the overall sound will be affected by this voltage.
I had experienced twice with my Paradigm Servo 15v2 subwoofer switching off and on, struggling to maintain switched on during the very low input voltage (198V-200V) which really scared me. I had to stop the movie session immediately.
Although I'm using PurePower ac regenerators, I will also stop listening/movie session or switch to battery mode if the input voltage is found very low like 200V.

PowerTrans works by always outputting 240V. However, as noted, this is via manual setting. There are two voltage meters on the front. One for incoming and 1 for outgoing. The idea is you check the incoming voltage and then turn the knob to correspond to that. I.e. the supply meter shows you the actual wall outlet voltage and you set the PT to work with that. Internally it will step up (or down) the output voltage to 240V. The higher, more expensive model has an additional fine-adjustement knob to add or minus 5V to the output voltage.

As noted, one of the biggest disadvantage of the PT is that it is manual adjustment. This can be irritating if your voltage fluctuates a lot over the course of the listening session. For safety, we also switch off the whole system when we adjust the PT voltage so adjusting the PT in the middle of the listening session is quite inconvenient. Nevertheless, I do not think any other power conditioner can fit my requirements except PT.

I have taken the modification package offered by Adrian. It really works, at least in my system and to my ears. The difference is in the more punchy bass and clearer highs.

I find my system actually works down to as low as 200V but by then the sound has become really shitty.

For myself, I usually take the safe route and if I see any signs of power inconsistency from TNB (like subtle flickering of the lights or the air-cond seeming to struggle to get the room cold, etc), I simply do not power on the system. Like many of you, I have seen, 1st hand in some cases, what TNB can do to our precious system so I do not want to take the risk.

Finally, I think areas where there are SMI factories will be those that face increasing voltage at night. In purely residential areas, we usually face reducing voltage at night. In my case, the TNB substation is just metres away from my house. They had problems with some connections a few years ago but it seems they have fixed it recently so the voltage has been reasonably good lately (usually around 230V even at night). Nevertheless, the use of PT was still hugely beneficial to my system.

Thanks WongKN for clarifying how the PT manual V adjustment works. Glad to know the mod works, RM500 for doing it is no small change.

Did you also get the extension strip from Adrian? I saw that the PT only has 1 outlet so Adrian mentioned you need an extension strip for more components.

Wow.. Cannot imagine the hassles of tuning the manual PowerTrans when the electricity fluctuates.

car o scope wrote:Wow.. Cannot imagine the hassles of tuning the manual PowerTrans when the electricity fluctuates.

Must squat there to jaga or not?

Yes, I find Adrian's power strip is also worthwhile, especially given the quality of materials and workmanship. The thing is those american power sockets and plugs are selected based on usage and listening experience with his high-end customers. So when I buy the power strip, I had the benefit of it being 'vetted' on systems that cost several orders of magnitude more than my own. For best results, I understand his highest end customers will ask him to wire it with the Clearaudio 'diamond' power cords even internally as well. Unfortunately the cost is quite crippling. Maybe when bonus comes next month....

For my use, I find that setting the powertran to work with 230V input voltage and then setting the fine adjustment knob to -5V works almost ideally for me. I was taught this by Chong, one of Adrian's regulars. In my area, voltage nowadays starts at almost 240V early in the evening but drops to 230V later into the night. Actually 230V is still quite good. But by setting the PT to 230V, I get 250 - 5 or 245V early in the evening and later into the night, when voltage drops to 230V, I get 240 - 5 or 235V. This is a fluctuation over approx 10V, from 245V down to 235V but as the extremes are merely 5V off the ideal desired 240V, it works wonders and I don't have to think about changing the setting at all.

It works practically every night I listen to the system. If ever the voltage drops to below 230V, usually the lights starts to flicker subtly and that's when I take the safe route and power off the system. I actually managed to anticipate a couple of TNB power outages using this approach.

As always, what works for me might or might not work for you. So best way is always to check and listen carefully for yourself and then try your best to guestimate the validity in your own system and your own house/area. Have faith in your guesstimates, I find we are quite often not that far off.

I am still thinking of investing in the manual PowerTrans or not.
The hassles of switching the manual PowerTrans a few times over the course of a nice track (when the electricity fluctuates) somehow make me think thrice.
Perhaps I should just give up looking for one and like some of you here, switch off system when the electricity supply is inconsistent.
That's it!!

car o scope wrote:I am still thinking of investing in the manual PowerTrans or not.
The hassles of switching the manual PowerTrans a few times over the course of a nice track (when the electricity fluctuates) somehow make me think thrice.
Perhaps I should just give up looking for one and like some of you here, switch off system when the electricity supply is inconsistent.
That's it!!

Or move to Singapore.

why singapore?

Loh, do like me. Go and get just a simple voltage meter first. I think some shops sells digital ones. Then monitor your wall socket voltage over several nights of listening. The way you talk, it sounds as if your house voltage fluctuates wildly over the course of a single listening session. I doubt if it can be -that- bad. I used to think so too in the past. But once I have the voltmeter, I can see that the voltage is basically stable but drops gradually as the night gets later. So from around 240V, it drops down to around 230V (nowadays. In the past it can drop to 220V). That's why I can leave the PowerTrans at the same setting the whole night, like just now. In fact I have not changed the settings on the PT since months already.

OutdoorXplorer wrote:why singapore?

Outage is very rare here and they always fixed it very quickly if it does happen. Supply voltage here is +- 6%.

What do you expect ? Singapore power is not supplied by TNB right ?

I will try to find out the voltage.

in my housing area, daytime voltage is 243 V - 240 V
nite time is 198 V - 210V
Thats y when I watch NameWee short movie on "TNB"
I really clap my hand...

Octave Electronics sells a very neat gadget that allows one to read the voltage of the mains outlet by just plugging it into the grid like a household appliance. U just leave it plugged in & get a live display of the line voltage. I've had it for years & it still works flawlessly to this day.

Wabun... holy shit, your power supply is really bad. Mine never dips below ~215-220V even back when there was supposedly a bad connection in the TNB substation to my area (we frequently gets blackouts due to something tripping in the substation). But since TNB finally fixed it (after making us suffer for umpteenth years), the voltage seldom falls below 230V.

The device described by Joeling seems like a very worthwhile investment for anyone seriously into hifi.

tycham wrote:

car o scope wrote:I am still thinking of investing in the manual PowerTrans or not.
The hassles of switching the manual PowerTrans a few times over the course of a nice track (when the electricity fluctuates) somehow make me think thrice.
Perhaps I should just give up looking for one and like some of you here, switch off system when the electricity supply is inconsistent.
That's it!!

Or move to Singapore.

1stly, not getting used to the environment there.
2ndly, prefer landed property. hahahahahaha...

Wabun... holy shit, your power supply is really bad. Mine never dips below ~215-220V even back when there was supposedly a bad connection in the TNB substation to my area (we frequently gets blackouts due to something tripping in the substation). But since TNB finally fixed it (after making us suffer for umpteenth years), the voltage seldom falls below 230V.

thats the reason why I bought a 5KVA Variac..beside used for amp repair..I use it as my step up / down transformer.. it can varies from 0 - 285V AC with maximum loading of 5KVA.. nice toy. I am lucky to get it from a bankrupt factory with RM200

joeling wrote:Octave Electronics sells a very neat gadget that allows one to read the voltage of the mains outlet by just plugging it into the grid like a household appliance. U just leave it plugged in & get a live display of the line voltage. I've had it for years & it still works flawlessly to this day.

Or just buy something like the Kill A Watt meter. Gives you lots of info like voltage, amperage, PF, watts (drawn by the connected equipment), Hz.

tycham wrote:

OutdoorXplorer wrote:why singapore?

Outage is very rare here and they always fixed it very quickly if it does happen. Supply voltage here is +- 6%.

Actually +/- 6% is still quite wide. Assuming 230V nominal, it means the range is from 216V - 244V.

jchong wrote:

tycham wrote:

OutdoorXplorer wrote:why singapore?

Outage is very rare here and they always fixed it very quickly if it does happen. Supply voltage here is +- 6%.

Actually +/- 6% is still quite wide. Assuming 230V nominal, it means the range is from 216V - 244V.

I agree that +- 6% is a wide range, but this is their specification.

I took readings of my home supply over a 24 hours period and it ranges from 236V to 243V. The 236 -238V and 240- 243V normally lasted only for about 10mins or so for most of the time I am getting 238V-240V.

Hi there,

I'd just like to chime in on my experiences with bad/lousy power supplies.

I used to listen to music when I get home from work at about 8pm to 11pm. That's like the worst time to listen. At one point my records sounded like dried crap on a stick. At first I thought it was my amp or speakers, but then I began to listen to music in the morning--usually on weekends. It sounded soo much better. This is what I usually do now, listen to music in the morning.

kamen555 wrote:Hi there,

I'd just like to chime in on my experiences with bad/lousy power supplies.

I used to listen to music when I get home from work at about 8pm to 11pm. That's like the worst time to listen. At one point my records sounded like dried crap on a stick. At first I thought it was my amp or speakers, but then I began to listen to music in the morning--usually on weekends. It sounded soo much better. This is what I usually do now, listen to music in the morning.

Why don't you get a voltage regulator? You can then enjoy your music as and when you like.

To me, the main purpose of buying a voltage regulator is to protect the equipments.
The amount of investment is just too high and it is just too risky under the condition of inconsistent voltage.

I've tried many brands of power products and invested much so far, my experience told me that even with a combination of very fine isolation transformer, power filter, inductor choke, ac regenerator, ac cords.....and with dedicated ac line but if the equipments still get the power from the grid, those combination of power products will only minimize the effect of bad electricity to sound/video and will not completely eliminate it.
My case for example, even if the grid input voltage and frequency are optimum, say 230V 50hz, for different days, there will still be a difference in sound ( dynamics, quietness and control )and video ( sharpness and noise level ) in comparisons.
Only with own isolated power generation plant, generator,battery power...bad electricity effect to sound and video could be only eliminated.
Anyone has the idea of household solar power ( Japan technology )implemented in Malaysia not long ago? The installation and maintenance cost is very high though.

tycham wrote:

Why don't you get a voltage regulator? You can then enjoy your music as and when you like.

tycham,

As some have pointed out here, it's quite expensive. I think the difference in sound can be heard when you are a dedicated listener, as in you actually take time every day to just listen to music. An example I can give is Jimi Hendrix records, they contain a huge amount of guitar effects and fully uses the stereo component of a hifi system, tapi kalau dengar masa peak - electrical - usage times, the music sounds a mess. If I pasang pagi-pagi, especially working week days (just before leaving for work at 7am), everything sounds well put together and makes sense. So this issue of consistent voltage is quite important (at first I thought it was a made-up problem by shops wanting to sell their wares). It may also be due to the ears having a bit of rest...entahlah...

hughesths wrote:I've tried many brands of power products and invested much so far, my experience told me that even with a combination of very fine isolation transformer, power filter, inductor choke, ac regenerator, ac cords.....and with dedicated ac line but if the equipments still get the power from the grid, those combination of power products will only minimize the effect of bad electricity to sound/video and will not completely eliminate it.

In the case of AC Regenerator or double conversion UPS, wouldn't the output power be completely isolated from the grid? In fact the output power is 'new' power independant of the grid no?

My case for example, even if the grid input voltage and frequency are optimum, say 230V 50hz, for different days, there will still be a difference in sound ( dynamics, quietness and control )and video ( sharpness and noise level ) in comparisons.

Voltage and frequency are only two of the factors involved. Even if both are optimum, from what I read other factors like the waveform distortion or EMI/RFI noise pollution can be affected by industrial machinery polluting the powerlines (but I assume this only happens if you live near an industrial area).

Only with own isolated power generation plant, generator,battery power...bad electricity effect to sound and video could be only eliminated.
Anyone has the idea of household solar power ( Japan technology )implemented in Malaysia not long ago? The installation and maintenance cost is very high though.

Of those few options you mentioned, I guess only battery power is practical and feasible. Battery power is available, and isn't that the principle behind the double conversion UPS?

Household solar power hasn't gained traction due to high cost as you mentioned.

kamen555 wrote:

tycham wrote:

Why don't you get a voltage regulator? You can then enjoy your music as and when you like.

tycham,

As some have pointed out here, it's quite expensive.

Actually a basic AVR is quite cheap. Like those computer ones, I've seen a Koss 800 AVR for RM50. Of course, many have said those are unsuitable for hi-fi use

But even a higher grade AVR is maybe a few hundred. It's those 'audiophile' branded ones which can be in the 4-figure range.

jchong wrote:

kamen555 wrote:

tycham wrote:

Why don't you get a voltage regulator? You can then enjoy your music as and when you like.

tycham,

As some have pointed out here, it's quite expensive.

Actually a basic AVR is quite cheap. Like those computer ones, I've seen a Koss 800 AVR for RM50. Of course, many have said those are unsuitable for hi-fi use

But even a higher grade AVR is maybe a few hundred. It's those 'audiophile' branded ones which can be in the 4-figure range.

I had heard vintage Quad equipments powered by the RM50 800 AVR. Sounded clean and with a crystalline clarity.

P.S. Power supply is by TNB!

tycham wrote:I had heard vintage Quad equipments powered by the RM50 800 AVR. Sounded clean and with a crystalline clarity.

P.S. Power supply is by TNB!

Thanks for sharing that. It debunks the myth of the cheap AVR being unsuitable for hi-fi use.

THESE ARE MY VIEWS ;

1voltage regulater should be avoided ,the Transformers dump too much noise into your system;you might get better voltage output but it would be full of noise!!!!

2.Likewise most UPS will dump in way too much noise .

3.Contrarary to popular belief ,the TNB supply is amongst the best in the region,BUT a lot of houses are cabled with the lousiest of cables and receptacles.Likewise, a lot of the electrical goods{lamp,downlight,electrical appliances ]are just filled with bad transformers and motors that makes the internal environment i.e the house very noisy,and the power drawn irregular with peaks and dips......


Now that we have got that clear what are the solutions??

1.well rewire the house .I kid you not ;really use good quality wires ELCBs and receptacles,they are the basis of good steady voltage in house....

2.Use a dedicated cuircuit with NO branching.A must...

3.the plug in Voltage stabalizer/Noise harvesters gives you way better results than any transformer based system based could.I really like the hifi tuning and audio prism ones....there are also many locally made ones that are fairly prized that are normally markerted as power saving devise.These are capacitors based and are noise free.Use multiple units for best results.

4.AVOID the Transformer based voltage reg.They are not for hifi...........

Thanks for your views tin.

tin wrote:1.well rewire the house .I kid you not ;really use good quality wires ELCBs and receptacles,they are the basis of good steady voltage in house....

Can you recommend what are good brands for those ELCBs and receptacles?

Elsewhere I saw you recommended changing to US receptacles (then can use those US terminated power cords easily). Anywhere locally to buy these and what are the good ones?

3.the plug in Voltage stabalizer/Noise harvesters gives you way better results than any transformer based system based could.I really like the hifi tuning and audio prism ones....there are also many locally made ones that are fairly prized that are normally markerted as power saving devise.These are capacitors based and are noise free.Use multiple units for best results.

4.AVOID the Transformer based voltage reg.They are not for hifi...........

You've pointed out strongly to avoid transformer based VR. What about isolation transformers like Powertrans or RGPC Substation or Torus RM8?