Re: Apogee, Magnepan & MartinLogan speakers - discussion thread

[mugenfoo]

Overall this thread has proven to be very informative although we digressed a bit along the way which I think is usual when people are talking about the things they love!

So far from all the feedback, the 1.6 seems to be a good model to start with. The kind of amp it needs is manageable (khartago comes to mind) and not going into the deep deep end yet.

But no one mentioned apogee or rather which model one can start with. There could be reasons but anyhow i believe apogee made some of the best speakers in the world (i have heard the duetta before) and i don't mind getting one irregardless. I can always call that aussie guy for parts.

So to the sifus reading this, are the apogee hybrids good enough to satisfy my thirst for ribbon sound or I'm better off with the 1.6? I'm looking for crystal clear mids and highs and quality bass. Lets not consider higher models at the moment.

In the hybrids, between the ribbon and the cone, which is a heavier load for the amp?

The Apogee Hybrids are also very authoritative in their own right.
Imagine the transparency of ribbons with the slam, dynamics and deep bass of a cone woofer. Someone has a pair of huge hybrid from the Centaurus thats not being used ... mebbe if he decides to post it up for sale, u can nego on it. But u better make sure u got an extremely powderful amp for it... otherwise the whole set up can sound worse than a transistor radio.

[car o scope]

The Apogee Hybrids are also very authoritative in their own right.
Imagine the transparency of ribbons with the slam, dynamics and deep bass of a cone woofer. Someone has a pair of huge hybrid from the Centaurus thats not being used ... mebbe if he decides to post it up for sale, u can nego on it. But u better make sure u got an extremely powderful amp for it... otherwise the whole set up can sound worse than a transistor radio.

Demn powderful.. If dont have an extremely powderful amp, the system will churn out less powder.. hahahahahahaha...
Churn out sugar better as the supply is low.

OK OK.. back to normal.. There was a pair of Slant 6 in a Spore website but I just checked again and it was sold off recently.

[WongKN]

There is still a refurbished pair of Apogee Centaur Minor, the very first hybrid speaker Apogee made, for sale in Audio Image. The cabinet however is not in the best of condition as the original owner treated it roughly before he traded it in. But for the adventurous DIY'er, he/she can take out the veneer and send it for painting.

Centaurs are a lot easier to drive than the full ribbons but ultimately, it still demands a very strong amp (power, current, damping factor, etc). The issue is 'control', the amp needs to exert an iron grip on the speaker before it will truly sing. Without enough control, the bass sounds slow and bloated and even the mids will suffer in definition. With the advent of amps like the Odyssey, this should not be a big problem any more.

[double-ten]

There is still a refurbished pair of Apogee Centaur Minor, the very first hybrid speaker Apogee made, for sale in Audio Image. The cabinet however is not in the best of condition as the original owner treated it roughly before he traded it in. But for the adventurous DIY'er, he/she can take out the veneer and send it for painting.

wong - noted and tks!

mugen - as you can see now, that someone is definitely not parting with it...

[mugenfoo]

yeah, for obvious sentimental reasons too.

Actually the Centaur Minor is a damn good set to start with. It was my first time hearinf ribbons almost 20 years ago on a pair of Centaur Minors and driven with a Krell KST or KSA-Something.

With the proper placement, the holographic effect was fantastic. First time ever hearing a believable 3D sound stage.

[carz]

Mugen,
Can you confirm that FPB Mk1 and Mk2 has the old facia design, and the Mk3 has the new design ? Were there any mk2 series with the new fascia design ?

How close are the FPB mk3 series to the KAS series in terms of slam, dynamics and sonic refinement ?


[quote="mugenfoo"]

same with the Macs too ... hard to kill

mugen: i don't know about power being everything. unless you're driving 0.5ohm loads on speakers with a sensitivity of 80dB. power is heady though ... adrian says those original KSA-50 and KSA-100 powers amp were the real deal ...the "S" series after that wasn't too bad, but the FPB left me cold ...

As for the FPB leaving u cold, its understandable. But this needs to be qualified: The 1st Gen FPB with the rounded front faceplate got whimpier compared to the previous KSA and KAS eras. Lets call this one Mk.I

Then came the CAST thingy which was the FPB "C" series, but still abit on the lembik side. Lets call this the mk.II variant of the FPBs.

Then came the mk.III FPB "X" series , essentially a more aggresively tuned amp and also the CAST connections, hence the "cx" suffix for these era of FPB amps. And these also took on the front fascia of the Krell MRA flagship amp: fluted front CONCAVE faceplate with the silver arch in the centre. The X series amps ran much hotter (due to higher bias), and also gave back the trademark forceful slam and dynamics.

This would be the last hurrah of the Monstrous Krells of yesteryear before the dawning of the silvery packaged Evo series.

[mugenfoo]

mk.1 grey rounded flat fascia.

mk.2 black fascia, no fluted.

mk.3 black fascia, fluted. aka mini MRA style.

There is one last batch of mk.2 which has the mk.3 fascia. But this is rarity. Only came across one instance of it so far.

But the basic internal layout is the same, and Krell offered upgrades for the mk.1 owners to go C or CX, while maintaining the old external look.

Maybe the Norman Audio guy can confirm/correct this.

[WongKN]

Carz,

You WON'T go wrong with an FBP. They are superb amps. The KAS/KAS-2s are extremely hard to come by and owners generally DO NOT part with them unless they upgrade to amps like Soulution monoblocks. FBPs however are a bit easier to locate, not a lot but better than KAS/KAS-2 (never heard of an MRA for sale).

[junchoon]

1. was told 10x15ft minimum room size for maggies, is that true for the new 1.7?
2. anyone use maggies in a HT + SACD 5.1 using maggies?

thanks.
wps

[mugenfoo]

1. was told 10x15ft minimum room size for maggies, is that true for the new 1.7?
2. anyone use maggies in a HT + SACD 5.1 using maggies?

thanks.
wps

There are no hard-and-fast rules regarding minimum room sizes.

On your particular example of 10x15ft, if u actually have this particular room dimension, it would sound extremely horrible with whatever speakers placed in it, and will need massive room acoustic treatment.

[catal2002]

Hi,

U also need to know your room height before we determine if it is bad or good.


KLau
www.h1f1.blogspot.com


[quote="mugenfoo"]

1. was told 10x15ft minimum room size for maggies, is that true for the new 1.7?
2. anyone use maggies in a HT + SACD 5.1 using maggies?

thanks.
wps

[junchoon]

about 9.5ft to 10ft height.
the room size is 12X13.5ft

thanks,
wps

[quote="catal2002"]Hi,

U also need to know your room height before we determine if it is bad or good.


KLau
www.h1f1.blogspot.com

1. was told 10x15ft minimum room size for maggies, is that true for the new 1.7?
2. anyone use maggies in a HT + SACD 5.1 using maggies?

thanks.
wps

[junchoon]

1. was told 10x15ft minimum room size for maggies, is that true for the new 1.7?
2. anyone use maggies in a HT + SACD 5.1 using maggies?

thanks.
wps

There are no hard-and-fast rules regarding minimum room sizes.

On your particular example of 10x15ft, if u actually have this particular room dimension, it would sound extremely horrible with whatever speakers placed in it, and will need massive room acoustic treatment.

yeah i know that. but i still i believe the room will contribute to 40 to 50% of how a system sound, so should not ignore it. i am more interested in seeing if anyone done a maggie 5.1

thanks.
wps

[catal2002]

Hi,

I think it will be a tough room but i didn't do any simulation.( a wild guess)
My room is 9 x 15 x 10.Very bad room.It give me years of headache until recently i manage to tame it down but i started to move.Have to restart again all again.Huh!!..

KLau


[quote="junchoon"]about 9.5ft to 10ft height.
the room size is 12X13.5ft

thanks,
wps

Hi,

U also need to know your room height before we determine if it is bad or good.


KLau
www.h1f1.blogspot.com

1. was told 10x15ft minimum room size for maggies, is that true for the new 1.7?
2. anyone use maggies in a HT + SACD 5.1 using maggies?

thanks.
wps

[junchoon]

oops, no one use Maggie for 5.1?

wps

[bassraptor]

Harry Pearson does ... two MG20s for front, two MG3.6 for surround, two Maggie centre channels, topped off by two Grand Nola Reference subs. If you have the space, the MMGs, centre and a single good sub shud be an interesting experience.

[junchoon]

thanks bassraptor. seems like no one in Malaysia has 5.1 setup with maggies lah...

wps

[bassraptor]

Wait till I build my bungalow ... ... full Maggie 5.1 for HT system, for sure, in a 20x30 room ....

[mugenfoo]

Wait till I build my bungalow ... ... full Maggie 5.1 for HT system, for sure, in a 20x30 room ....

20x30 also not good ratios lah bro .....

[bassraptor]

Wait till I build my bungalow ... ... full Maggie 5.1 for HT system, for sure, in a 20x30 room ....

20x30 also not good ratios lah bro .....

it may be all i can afford to be able to accommodate those maggies ... ... dream, dream ...

[double-ten]

20x30 also not good ratios lah bro .....

mugen - most of the time, the floor is taken as flat. Now what about a split-level living room? These are quite commonly found in houses built in the 70s. The difference can be as much as 3 feet! How would floors of different 'heights' within the same room affect the sound? Or is it negligible?

[mugenfoo]

20x30 also not good ratios lah bro .....

mugen - most of the time, the floor is taken as flat. Now what about a split-level living room? These are quite commonly found in houses built in the 70s. The difference can be as much as 3 feet! How would floors of different 'heights' within the same room affect the sound? Or is it negligible?

Yes, height is also very important. Its just as important as the front/back and side dimensions.

And yes it will affect the sound as well. If u got a complex acoustic simulator program, the effects are very apparent due to any disjointed or step wall, ceiling or floor surfaces.

[carz]

Mugen,
What complex acoustic simulator program do you have ore recommend. Can you recommend any....what is the best?

Are these available for free or pay ?

[foomarnhing]

i have read the thread thru and just thought that there seem an unanswered aspect ie how does a 3.6 maggie sound like and the size of room it works best in. Also how it sounds relative to 1.6? I now play the 3.6 and before that the 1.6. I have posted a review in audio assylum so pls go there. Anyway in short the 3.6 is much better as it should and it works well in my 20 by 30 by 12 ft room. Also it is driven by mcintosh 402 and the pre is the promitheus signature mono block pre to give the most uncoloured signal to the maggie. That my phlosophy, purity of signal all the way thru. Hope this helps.

[hifikrazy]

Is there a dealer in Malaysia that I can audition these Maggies? I have heard so much good things about them.

[bassraptor]

Absolute Sound, but they hardly carry stock. Man, I should maybe start holding demos at home and charging/collecting commission!



Mugen: Quick one - Centaur Minor, better with the ribbons on the inside or outside ...??

[hifikrazy]

Ya, didn't see any Maggies in there the last time I walked in. In fact, hardly saw any speakers in there other than a pair of Neat.

[WongKN]

bassraptor, what exactly do you mean when you say ribbons on inside or outside, you mean the left-right placement of the speakers ? The ribbons are supposed to be placed on the inner edge, i.e. against each other, with the woofers on the outside, i.e. nearer the side walls. If you reverse the placement, the speakers won't image well and will in fact sound 'funny'.

[bassraptor]

Wong: Yes, that's what I was asking, tks. with the maggies, the tweeter end is generally placed on the outside, ie, closer to side wall. i was told for the apogee hybrid like centaur minor, it shud be the inner edge.

btw, after all this while, i finally gathered the energy to play around with different jumber wires for my Maggie 1.6. Amazed at the differences!

[WongKN]

Jumper wires eh ? Have a good talk with Adrian and you will be amazed what he has managed to acheive with 'simple' wires. I myself was completely shocked when I replaced my XLO jumper wires with Clearaudio ones he sold to me. What a difference two short simple wires can make.

With Apogees, even the full panels, the midrange/high ribbons, i.e. the sleek tall ribbons are always placed inside. Yes, this tends to be different from the way Maggies are to be placed. The speakers are designed to work in this configuration. Then the bass panel is placed on the outside, nearer the side walls.

So... I gather you took home the remaining pair of Centaur Minor from Adrian's place ?

[bassraptor]

So... I gather you took home the remaining pair of Centaur Minor from Adrian's place ?

... you gathered right ...

[WongKN]

That's a good way of putting things...

Would be interested to hear your views of the relative merits and weaknesses of both speakers when compared to each other. Both speakers; Maggies and Apogees have some unique strengths that regular box-typed enclosed speakers finds very difficult to match. Yet they too have weaknesses of their own. But what about between each other ?

[bassraptor]

Initial listen ... the Apogee ribbons sound purer than the Maggies, understandable as the maggies are quasi ribbons. I'm still sorting out the positioning for bass and imaging, so let me mess around some more ...

[WongKN]

Hint : You will read lots of recommendation not to toe Apogee speakes, i.e. they will be face-on to the listener. However, this applies mainly to the full ribbons. For the hybrids, you will find that it works a bit like box speakes, i.e. it's worthwhile to experiment with toeing inwards.

[bassraptor]

yes, that's what adrian said ... slight toe-in .... doing that.

[car o scope]

Raptor,

How's the experiment?

[bassraptor]

going on and getting there .... very interesting .... i'm pulling out more and more CDs to try! the ribbons and bass driver seem as well-integrated as can be ...

[CLH]

Interesting to note the 'rediscovery' of the natural sound of ribbon/panels. I once had 2 Apogees, a Centaur Minor and a Stage. Sold the CM to Singaporean last year. I never turned back to cone/dome speakers ever since (except for HT). Re-ribboned my Minigrands (of 1998) in 2003 in Singapore. And now 2010 just received the latest 26 inch MRTW ribbons from Graz, Australia. The frames are like 'lasts forever' and I renew the ribbons like once every 6~7 years. This KLM5 ribbons are lighter and supposedly provide more "detail" than the originals. I will be replacing the ribbons with the new ones soon, and since I have no use for them anymore, I intend to give away the old ribbons (in good condition - one pair L&R). See pictures of the new ribbons if you don't know what I mean. Condition: for your own need only not for resale, and of no use if you don't own the right Apogee model.

So, if your current 26" ribbons (only Apogee CM, Stage, Minigrand) is in bad shape and want a replacement, let me know, its FOC and you can pick up AFTER I install the new ones. If there are no takers within one month, I will send to enthusiasts overseas.

[bassraptor]

Where do you live, CLH?

[WongKN]

CLH,

I would be interest4ed to know how you find the new replacement ribbon. Plus how much you paid for it.

[car o scope]

Suddenly both moderators are fully awake and attracted to the photos.

[bassraptor]

Suddenly both moderators are fully awake and attracted to the photos.

do check the number of posts I made on this thread prior to the photos.

[car o scope]

Yeah.. right.. ribbon speakers are very interesting stuffs indeed.

[CLH]

CLH,

I would be interest4ed to know how you find the new replacement ribbon. Plus how much you paid for it.

I have not installed them yet, probably over this or next weekend. The KLM5 ribbons costs USD365 + USD50 shipping direct from Graz. They are brand new (just produced) as the film material may suffer aging and hardening especially in our tropical heat. Graz advises against the XLM ribbons which he says some judge as overly detailed or bright, KLM no complaints.

And Bassraptor : my location? - Puchong

[bassraptor]

CLH: I'll pick 'em up from you the moment you can release 'em, man ... since I have a Centaur Minor now .... just pm me when you're ready.

[mugenfoo]

I have not installed them yet, probably over this
or next weekend. The KLM5 ribbons costs USD365 + USD50 shipping direct
from Graz. They are brand new (just produced) as the film material may
suffer aging and hardening especially in our tropical heat. Graz
advises against the XLM ribbons which he says some judge as overly
detailed or bright, KLM no complaints.

And Bassraptor : my
location? - Puchong

hi CLH,
did the Graz ribbons also come with some weight tensioner kit to properly re-tension the new ribbon tweeters when u fit in the new ones ?

Absolute Sound, but they hardly carry stock. Man, I
should maybe start holding demos at home and charging/collecting
commission!



Mugen: Quick one - Centaur Minor, better
with the ribbons on the inside or outside ...??

Apogees, as WongKN said, better to have the ribbons on the "inside". But NO HARM to experiment. Who knows, you might discover another "Ki arrangement" like what Jo Ki did for the LS3/5a+Subwoofer thingy.
Call it "Jesh-Arrangement" ?

[bassraptor]

ha ha, welcome "back", mugen!!!

For those seeking panel world entry:

http://www.hifi4sale.net/audio-video-equipment-for-sale-f1/magnepan-mg16qr-used-t8846.htm

[CLH]

Hi Mugen,
Yes, the ribbon kit from Graz is inclusive of manual, tool & accessories, right down to the new stainless steel bolts and washers. Anyway this is going to be the 3rd pair of ribbons being installed - like putting on new tyres & absorbers on an old car. The inside frame holding the ribbons and magnets is steel so, just 2 bolts at the top and 2 at the bottom to switch ribbons, although proper alignment and tension is important as you say. The tensioning is by hanging the weight in the form of a container filled with water, in this case, its 95grams for this new ribbons. My original Apogee ribbons was tensioned at 150grams as per Apogee manual.

Hi Bassraptor, sorry Wong KN pmed me as soon as I posted and 'booked' it first. This 'old' ribbon is still relatively 'new' since it was purchased in 2003 and is of the 26-6 type, meaning six elements (or strips) - see picture: 6 points to solder at each end. Please check that your current model is same and not the older 3 element type. So unless Wong's mismatch, he gets it.

[bassraptor]

CLH: Ah, my bad ... mine's the 26-inch, 6-element type ...

[bassraptor]

BTW, what can anyone tell me about using the CMs with subs ... I figure integration could be easier since they're already hybrids ...

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