Re: Apogee, Magnepan & MartinLogan speakers - discussion thread

[bassraptor]

My first run-in with a pair of Apogees was around 1988, at a dealer's showroom, he was storing it for a client who was doing up his house. They were big, can't remember if Caliper, Duetta or Scintilla ... all i remember is picking my jaw off the floor after hearing some acoustic guitar music on it ...

izam: ah, so getting there, eh? great, have fun, am glad you've sorted out the bass issues ....

[f8.]

Didn't the Scintilla with its 0.5ohm impedance at certain frequencies indirectly helped Krell establish itself as one of the rare few amps which didn't get itself scintillated driving the Apogee?

I was too young to have experienced the Apogee then, pity.

BR yours is the off-white pair that Absolute had? There was a slight stain at the back of one of the panels, I think it could be easily removed and washed.

[bassraptor]

Yah, f8, that was the last pair they had their on demo, other than grille, it was fine.


Even more difficult to drive than the Scintillas were the Original Full Range Apogees. I think only the Mark Levinson ML-2 and Krell KSA-100 could feed the hungry loads, down to half an ohm! Those amps were stable right down there. The ML-2 was a 25-watt, Class A, monoblock. Power isn't everything, eh?

[mugenfoo]

Yah, f8, that was the last pair they had their on demo, other than grille, it was fine.


Even more difficult to drive than the Scintillas were the Original Full Range Apogees. I think only the Mark Levinson ML-2 and Krell KSA-100 could feed the hungry loads, down to half an ohm! Those amps were stable right down there. The ML-2 was a 25-watt, Class A, monoblock. Power isn't everything, eh?

By Adrian's story, the MLs were wonderful for the 20 minutes they lasted before giving up the ghost as well. It was the Krell was able to rock on through the show.

Yes, power isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing.

[f8.]

Krell's set the standard for current. I've heard Pass Lab's Aleph and Quad amps being able to short the + and - of the amp without blowing. That must be close to 0 ohms.

[WongKN]

Be aware that some well designed amps have output protection which temporarily disconnect the output stage when it detects short circuit. Usually if it is still connected and a short is done, there will be a lot of sparks and potential fire.

[bassraptor]

same with the Macs too ... hard to kill

mugen: i don't know about power being everything. unless you're driving 0.5ohm loads on speakers with a sensitivity of 80dB. power is heady though ... adrian says those original KSA-50 and KSA-100 powers amp were the real deal ...the "S" series after that wasn't too bad, but the FPB left me cold ...

btw, these Odyssey amps are reinventing my world as I knew it!

[car o scope]

Hmm.. So, the KSA-50 and KSA-100 have no slouch driving a pair of Apogees??

[mugenfoo]

same with the Macs too ... hard to kill

mugen: i don't know about power being everything. unless you're driving 0.5ohm loads on speakers with a sensitivity of 80dB. power is heady though ... adrian says those original KSA-50 and KSA-100 powers amp were the real deal ...the "S" series after that wasn't too bad, but the FPB left me cold ...

btw, these Odyssey amps are reinventing my world as I knew it!

Of course, we know the Odyssey amps are all the rage now.

As for the FPB leaving u cold, its understandable. But this needs to be qualified: The 1st Gen FPB with the rounded front faceplate got whimpier compared to the previous KSA and KAS eras. Lets call this one Mk.I

Then came the CAST thingy which was the FPB "C" series, but still abit on the lembik side. Lets call this the mk.II variant of the FPBs.

Then came the mk.III FPB "X" series , essentially a more aggresively tuned amp and also the CAST connections, hence the "cx" suffix for these era of FPB amps. And these also took on the front fascia of the Krell MRA flagship amp: fluted front CONCAVE faceplate with the silver arch in the centre. The X series amps ran much hotter (due to higher bias), and also gave back the trademark forceful slam and dynamics.

This would be the last hurrah of the Monstrous Krells of yesteryear before the dawning of the silvery packaged Evo series.

As for the Evo series, i honestly have not heard them being pushed to the limit and in a well set-up enviro, hence can't comment here.

Adrian would also readily admit that the old KSAs while being super forceful, also took a big hit in the harsh and coarse sound of the early Krells. Goes back to the same give-n-take scenario. Of course, with some handiwork with cable and component matching, the problem of coarseness/harshness is much easier to deal with than a total lack of bass-slam, extension and dynamics to begin with, it being the lesser of 2 evils.

That being said, there was a Stereophile article that tested the Mk.I FPB-600 that mentioned, if u ever gave up hifi, u could use the amp as a welding machine! This means outputting amperage in the hundreds region!

[mugenfoo]

Krell's set the standard for current. I've heard Pass Lab's Aleph and Quad amps being able to short the + and - of the amp without blowing. That must be close to 0 ohms.

Dude, seriously doubt if the Quad can handle a zero ohm short. If it can do so without damage to its output stage, then I'm tempted to believe that the amp's output stage has a relatively high output impedance. Meaning that while its less prone to self-destruct if shorted, it also means that when speaker load impedances drop, the amp cannot output more power to compensate.

By the power equations derived from Ohm's law, if the output impedance halves, then the power delivered should ideally double-up.

Amps that do 50 Watts into 8Ohms, but cannot do 100Watts into 4Ohms, is a telltale sign that its not that beefy an amp already.

The old Krells are rated all the way to 1 Ohm. Newer Krells, only 2 Ohms. Mainly due to modern trends that modern loudspeakers don't dip so low a load as compared to the previous generation of Apogee and Maggie monsters. This is not to say that the newer Krell cannot drive to 0.5ohms, but merely at a 0.5ohm load, it cannot deliver the power that its suppose to be doing ideally.

Imagine, if the amp is nominally rated to 100W -> 8ohms, this means 200W into 4ohm, 400W into 2ohm, 800W into 1ohm and 1600W into 0.5ohm, in a theoretically ideal situation that is.

[car o scope]

The more the explanation, the more I want a power amp and a pair of floorstanders.
Why the Apogees / Maggies are designed to be that difficult to drive?
What are the advantages?

[mugenfoo]

The more the explanation, the more I want a power amp and a pair of floorstanders.
Why the Apogees / Maggies are designed to be that difficult to drive?
What are the advantages?

The impedances of panel drives differ greatly from conventional coils in a cone woofer. The "wiring" on a panel driver are actually flat strips of aluminium foils as compared to a coiled wire in a cone woofer.

But there are also conventional drivers which are also very hard to drive. Like the Thiel CS5 speakers.

Sonically, Advantage is that it gives the "boxless" sound, which is as close to the original as it will ever get from a sonic reproduction system. Conical drivers, and speaker cabinet enclosures will always add some form of "signature" to the sound.

[car o scope]

Sound very interesting.
I assume that every design must have reasons behind them.
But it is painful in sourcing an amp powerful enough to exactly make them sing the way they are supposed to be.

I have had great "ear washing" experiences by Centaurus Slant 6.
Never thought a single driver can produce such great bass.
And I can remember the clarity and definition of the ribbon tweeter.
After that, I have since got to know a bit more about Apogees.

[double-ten]

for anyone interested, this link will show you a current database of apogee owners worldwide. So far only 120 owners listed. Look at all that high end stuff they're using. Lots of Krells....

[bassraptor]

mugen: when i took the FPB, i had the sound of the KSA "S" series in my head, used to have the 300S. Maybe that's why it left me cold! .... you're right about the coarser part ... sometimes, you want the sheer visceral thrill of slam and impact, rather than the oh-so-polished and poised approach. I guess it's the rock bassist in me ...

As for the Odyssey ... watch prices rise along the way ...

Sorry, double-10, i know you said Apogees/Maggies, so we'll get back on track. I used to have a Krell KSA-300S driving my older pair of 1.6, 8-10 years ago. With a Krell pre and Krell CD player (the one with the airstrip landing lights). It was an awesome phase in my hi-fi explorations ... ooops, there we go with Krell again!

[mugenfoo]

it can't be avoided Krells actually permit panel speakers to reach their full potential.

Maggies, Apogees driven by lesser grunt amps almost always ended up sounding shrill, bright, boring and spaced-in: Like that zombified drug junkie with a blank stare.

[VS126]

I will try to arrange a listening session for Maggies lover to listen to Maggies 3 x series driven by Krell KAS mono block with Wadia source.

Anybody interested?

Pre warned, you might not be able to enjoy yr own system anymore after the session. Limit to 3.
Session not confirm, have to ask owner first.

[double-ten]

Pre warned, you might not be able to enjoy yr own system anymore after the session.

how true....the poison is oh so sweet!

[f8.]

Count me in please.

[WongKN]

The greatest series of Krells, in my experience is their Reference series, those built for absolute sound quality without constraint or with very little constraint. KAS, KAS-2, and MRA. The modern equivalent is the EVO. However, KAS, KAS-2 and MRA were still designed by Dan Agostino while I am not sure if he still has a hand in the design of the EVO since he turned it into Krell Limited and then 'left' the company totally.

[mugenfoo]

The KAS series were supersceded with the FPB-cx monoblock series in the 2002, 2003, then around 2004 2005 onwards, its the EVO-1 to carry as the flagship of Krell amps.

The MRA had a very short run, mainly due to its over the moon pricetag and also because of its power requirements. Not many people's homes could actually run a MRA, and there were nagging issues with MRAs underperforming & also service issues due to poor electrical supply. So says the former Krell dealer. There was a story where an MRA zapped out an entire block of some Hong Kong housing flat.


Opps.. sorry .. lets get back to Maggies/Apogees here.
But it cant be denied the symbiotic relationship between Krells and Flat panel speakers, more specifically Apogees.

[bassraptor]

mugen: you're welcome to drop by my place sometime to hear how the 110-watt Odyssey Khartago drives the Maggies. I think you would be surprised. ... ... i was, too.

[chchyong89]

Krell's set the standard for current. I've heard Pass Lab's Aleph and Quad amps being able to short the + and - of the amp without blowing. That must be close to 0 ohms.

no problemo if the negative is actually work as ground, if its bridged connected, don't do so. ;-)

[car o scope]

Do we need air-cond/dehumidifer room for Apogees/Maggies?

[Norman Audio (M)]

The greatest series of Krells, in my experience is their Reference series, those built for absolute sound quality without constraint or with very little constraint. KAS, KAS-2, and MRA. The modern equivalent is the EVO. However, KAS, KAS-2 and MRA were still designed by Dan Agostino while I am not sure if he still has a hand in the design of the EVO since he turned it into Krell Limited and then 'left' the company totally.

To set the record straight...

The Evolution series, starting with the Evolution One power amp and Evolution Two preamp, was launched in 2005.

The entire Evolution series (202, 222, 302, 400, 402, 403, 600, 900 etc.) was designed under his watch.

Dan's been with Krell right up until the later part of 2009.

[mugenfoo]

Do we need air-cond/dehumidifer room for Apogees/Maggies?

No. You're confusing flat planar-magnetics with Electrostatics.

[catal2002]

Hi,

I have heard many ppl mention maggies is difficult in position.Is that true?
Will proper positining solve a big imaging maggies system?
Any maggies user facing any imaging problem?

KLau
www.h1f1.blogspot.com

[catal2002]

Hi,

A quad 606 only specify current output at 3 ohm.The protection circuit must be in function when shorted.


Klau
ww.h1f1.blogspot.com

Krell's set the standard for current. I've heard Pass Lab's Aleph and Quad amps being able to short the + and - of the amp without blowing. That must be close to 0 ohms.

no problemo if the negative is actually work as ground, if its bridged connected, don't do so. ;-)

[bassraptor]

Hi,

I have heard many ppl mention maggies is difficult in position.Is that true?
Will proper positining solve a big imaging maggies system?
Any maggies user facing any imaging problem?

KLau
[url=http://www.h1f1.blogspot.com

www.h1f1.blogspot.com[/quote[/url]]

yes, it takes some work to get it just right, but if the room is too small, well ... but it's all a lot of fun ...

[car o scope]

No. You're confusing flat planar-magnetics with Electrostatics.

For a moment, yes.
Now, no more.

[car o scope]

yes, it takes some work to get it just right, but if the room is too small, well ... but it's all a lot of fun ...

It is very challenging if room is small.
Even more challenging if the room is small AND square.

[f8.]

Do we need air-cond/dehumidifer room for Apogees/Maggies?

No. You're confusing flat planar-magnetics with Electrostatics.

I thought Apogees weren't electrostatic but ribbon speakers? Correct me if I'm wrong but electrostatics are speakers like the Quad ESL63 and Martin Logans?

[car o scope]

I thought Apogees weren't electrostatic but ribbon speakers? Correct me if I'm wrong but electrostatics are speakers like the Quad ESL63 and Martin Logans?

Yes. You are right.

[azri]

even a single ribbon tweeter has a good clear mids compare to conventional tweeters. i cant imagine having 26 of those.. per side!!

[mugenfoo]

Do we need air-cond/dehumidifer room for Apogees/Maggies?

No. You're confusing flat planar-magnetics with Electrostatics.

I thought Apogees weren't electrostatic but ribbon speakers? Correct me if I'm wrong but electrostatics are speakers like the Quad ESL63 and Martin Logans?

no one said Apogees are electrostatics. Scroll back up, re-read, re-understand the threads.

[double-ten]

mugen: you're welcome to drop by my place sometime to hear how the 110-watt Odyssey Khartago drives the Maggies. I think you would be surprised. ... ... i was, too.

bassraptor - can you briefly describe how khartago sounds different from those amps you used before (those in its league of course)? From what i've read, khartago is known more for its warm and laid back sound.

[bassraptor]

double-ten: then what you've read is pure imagination on part of the listener or some speaker or CD payer or wires being shown up. One, it's very transparent; two, it's got slam and pace; three, it's honestly musical in the sense that good recordings and ancillaries sound good and even if the bad ones sound bad, you get to grasp when went wrong.

as someone put it - odyssey amps manage to meld the transparency of the European amps with the slam of the American ones. Well, not surprising since it is a US-German marriage!

i also ask you to put this into this perspective - i gave up my Mac pre/power (thrice the price and power) for these and have not regretted one bit. Well, ok, so the Macs looked way prettier and had more features, the Odyssey amps are just plain Janes ... not the sort of ladies you'd want to take to a cocktail party, more the type you would take to a fight ... if u get my drift ...

[WongKN]

My understanding of the reference series is slightly different. The reference series (Krell) was first introduced during the generation with the sustained biasing. The regular stereo blocks are KSA; KSA-50S, KSA-100S, KSA-200S, KSA-300S top model. The corresponding mono-blocks are MDA. Then Krell introduced the KAS which is a 4 box monoblock (with separate power supply for each), then slightly later KAS-2 in which the power supply is integrated.

When Krell switched over to the new generation, the standard line-up uses the same model nomenclature for both stereo and monoblocks; FBP-200, and so forth. The CX is the refined version, sort of like the MMC for cars. The replacement for the KAS & KAS-2 is the MRA.

With the latest generation (thanks to Norman for clarifying that D'Agostino do have a hand in this generation as well), the replacement for the MRA is the Evolution 1 and 2.

Panel speakers like Magneplannar, Apogee, Martin Logan, Acoustat and so forth tends to turn the listening room into a sort of 'speaker enclosure'. With these type of speakers, bass can often be a problem is the amp is not up to the task of driving it. Speaker positioning is very critical for optimum performance. But the result can be very good indeed.

[WongKN]

I can vouch for the abilities of the Odyssey amps. If my pocket is deeper, I would love to get one of these to power my Apogee Centaur Majors, which sadly are sitting quietly in a corner because my ARC CL60 cannot control it properly.

[car o scope]

I can vouch for the abilities of the Odyssey amps. If my pocket is deeper, I would love to get one of these to power my Apogee Centaur Majors, which sadly are sitting quietly in a corner because my ARC CL60 cannot control it properly.

How muchie are those Odyssey amps?
Never thought of trading-in the ARC for Odyssey?
The Centaur Major very sayang to sit in a corner.

[bassraptor]

Check the website, give you a rough idea of price, minus the shipping and duties ...

[VS126]

From my experience, maggies are not really hard to place. Plug it anywhere in the room and it will sound good.

To make it sound better, pull it out into the room and you will be rewarded with even better sound. They just need space to breathe and high current amp to burn.

I have personally tried the 1 and 3 series in very small room and it sounded much better than many other speakers in the same room.

The 3 series in a normal sized living room works fine.

Those maggies with ribbons shd be matched with amps which are not bright sounding.

Odyssey amps have very good review and I believe is the poor cousin of the ultra expensive Symphonic Line series of amplifier.

[mugenfoo]

Just for the record, anyone thinking of playing Oddysey Amps, don't bother with the "balanced" XLR jacks, coz its not really balanced and taking a peek inside will show that only the hot and ground pins are connected. The cold pin goes to nowhere.

But as long as it sounds good all the same, who cares right ?

[VS126]

Might be some hyper sensitive people here, so I better not mention poor cousin.

Odyssey is by the same people who did the Symphonic Line but sold online and without frills, ie no fancy casework, cheaper parts, not true balanced etc etc.

Still it is a force to be reckon with. Good sound and value for money.

Cheers

[mugenfoo]

no need to "rub it in" further ....

[bassraptor]

Odyssey amps use the same boards as Symphonic Line. Get to the website for the story.
Poor cousin is right. Let's call a spade a spade. But that's just in price n looks. In sound, this is like getting Audi performance for Proton price. Notice i did not make comparison to other overhyped German cars. :-)

[WongKN]

Odyssey amps use the same boards as Symphonic Line. ..... Notice i did not make comparison to other overhyped German cars. :-)

Hmmm.... I wonder if I should get my moderator mode on standby ...

[bassraptor]

No need, I have my own moderator mode ... it comes with different sampling rates .

[double-ten]

Overall this thread has proven to be very informative although we digressed a bit along the way which I think is usual when people are talking about the things they love!

So far from all the feedback, the 1.6 seems to be a good model to start with. The kind of amp it needs is manageable (khartago comes to mind) and not going into the deep deep end yet.

But no one mentioned apogee or rather which model one can start with. There could be reasons but anyhow i believe apogee made some of the best speakers in the world (i have heard the duetta before) and i don't mind getting one irregardless. I can always call that aussie guy for parts.

So to the sifus reading this, are the apogee hybrids good enough to satisfy my thirst for ribbon sound or I'm better off with the 1.6? I'm looking for crystal clear mids and highs and quality bass. Lets not consider higher models at the moment.

In the hybrids, between the ribbon and the cone, which is a heavier load for the amp?

[tycham]

How is the ribbon compared to electrostatic?

[Sponsored content]